*Official* English Football Season 2009-2010

[Pizzorno]

I really hope these Heitinga to Everton rumours prove to be true. We simply cannot go on with Hibbert at right back fro another season. He's such a weak link it's unbelievable. Happy with Distin's arrival too because he's a solid player and a capable Lescott replacement, but £5 million for a 31 year old? Suppose that's just the way the market is these days.

Have to admit I had lol'd at Hughes comments that Lescott's the best defender in the league. He wasn't even the best defender at Everton.

 

[sledger]

I really hope these Heitinga to Everton rumours prove to be true. We simply cannot go on with Hibbert at right back fro another season. He's such a weak link it's unbelievable. Happy with Distin's arrival too because he's a solid player and a capable Lescott replacement, but £5 million for a 31 year old? Suppose that's just the way the market is these days.

Have to admit I had lol'd at Hughes comments that Lescott's the best defender in the league. He wasn't even the best defender at Everton.

If he actually said that, it's pretty funny

 

[roseboy64]

There was fair outrage when United broke your unbeaten run courtesy of a Rooney dive back in 04 IIRC

edit - rose to claim it wasn't a dive in 5...4...3..

He did go down easily.

 

[Ikki]

You're seriously underplaying the quality of the side Benitez inherited. The defence in particular was outstanding. Hyypia, Henchoz, Carragher, Riise.

Carragher had played full-back for Houllier's tenure and only started to look awesome as a CB under Benitez. Hyypia was awesome in 2001, was merely very good in 2005. Henchoz wasn't even good in 2005 and barely played. Riise was simply an average player. The weakest LB by a distance of the top 4 when he was with us.

That team was relatively crap, and what made winning the CL even more impressive is that we had so many injured players that year.

The fact that your net spend over the last few years is considerably higher than United's (and presumably Chelsea's, though haven't checked, and definitely Arsenal's) would tend to negate this point.

Considerably higher? I think it's only 6-7 million difference. I looked for some stats and found this table. Apart from the sale of Ronaldo, I think it's more or less the same. Actually, I found this, as of March 21, which would take out the recent transfer window.

Ferguson claimed yesterday that Liverpool were “well ahead of us in spending in the last five years”, but the statistics appear to support Benítez. United’s gross spending since June 2004, when the Spaniard arrived at Anfield, totals £221.95 million compared with £212.6 million by Liverpool. Ferguson’s net spending over that period is £147.90 million compared with Benítez’s £111.39 million.

When half your squad comes before Benitez even coached it then needs closer analysis. Benitez had to rehaul a club from the ground up, you guys only needed to add a player here and there to an already championship competing/winning side. That's why your squad worth is much more than ours. Rooney, Berbatov and Ferdinand combined are about 90 million pounds our whole starting XI cost 105-110 million. Let's not even get into the benches of both teams. In fact, I'd wager if you tally up all the players Benitez has ever bought, I still don't think we'd compare to the price you paid for United's current squad.

You can't compare a coach who has broken so many transfer records (Ferguson) to one who only broke the club transfer record 2 years ago. Some history:

Ferguson started off with Gary Pallister who was bought for a little over 2 million pounds...but that was the record at the time. He bought Dion Dublin, Steve Bruce, Paul Ince, etc all before he even won anything with a lot of money. It also makes Cantona's 1.2 million not that cheap in retrospect. This is all despite the fact that he inherited a side with good players and a club with financial backing to help him even more.

A year or so later he signed Keane, another british transfer record for 3.75 million pounds. A year later, he again broke that transfer record getting Andy cole for 7 million pounds. A couple years later, Dwight Yorke for 12.6 million. That same season they bought Jaap Stam for 10 and a bit million pounds ...making him the most expensive defender in history - and most expensive dutch player ever. A few years later, Stam's record would be broken when Van Nistelrooy arrives for 18 million pounds...also breaking the british transfer record. They also bought Barthez for almost 8 million, making him the most expensive goalkeeper ever bought by a british club. And AGAIN, after that they broke the transfer record with Veron being bought for 28 million pounds. It was not too long after they broke the british transfer record again, and record for a defender signing Rio Ferdinand for 30 million pounds. That transfer record was broken a few years later when United signed Wayne Rooney for 31 million pounds...the most expensive transfer for a teenager. This all makes the 16-18 million pound signing of Carrick pretty cheap actually. Nani and Anderson being bought for similar fees. Just last season they would have had the most expensive signing again but for Robinho, with Berbatov coming for about 31 million pounds...

So, again, trying to compare a team that has been built on the back of 23 years to one that was overhauled in 4-5 years is a mismatch.

Sorry for the very long post, but thought I'd just mention more points ahead of time since I know where this exchange is heading.

 

[Jarquis]

So annoyed about the Eduardo punishment tbh.
If he was caught during the match it would've been a yellow card offence but because of the referees poor decision making he suffers a 2 match ban? In the league 5 yellow cards = a 1 match ban, It doesn't add up. Especially when you factor in something like the Ian Hume incident (GIMH mentioned it earlier IIRC). In that situation where a player can not be punished on top of a card during the match, no matter how serious.

It's bizarre.

 

[Ikki]

Well, maybe UEFA and the FA should now be doing the same thing regularly. Harsh punishments for simulation. That's the only way it'll stop.

 

[TT Boy]

I really hope these Heitinga to Everton rumours prove to be true. We simply cannot go on with Hibbert at right back fro another season. He's such a weak link it's unbelievable. Happy with Distin's arrival too because he's a solid player and a capable Lescott replacement, but £5 million for a 31 year old? Suppose that's just the way the market is these days.

Have to admit I had lol'd at Hughes comments that Lescott's the best defender in the league. He wasn't even the best defender at Everton.

Be silly for Heitinga to forsake Champions League football for middle table mediocrity.

 

[GIMH]

You're seriously underplaying the quality of the side Benitez inherited. The defence in particular was outstanding. Hyypia, Henchoz, Carragher, Riise.

Henchoz was past his best by then and Riise was always better going forwards. Traore was getting a regular gig at the back for Liverpool. He inherited a side that somehow finished 4th the year before, but it was probably the worst top 4 side of the last 10 years, maybe Everton's the year after was worse but at least they were punching above their weight, Liverpool were mediocre when Benitez took over - Houllier was the first Liverpool manager in forever to get the sack. In 03-04 and the following season the media spoke of a 'big three' and it was only when Liverpool went on their CL run the following season that they revised this.

Ferguson signs a lot more good ones too. When was the last time Benitez snapped up a player of the quality of Evra (£5.5m), Vidic (£7m) or Ronaldo (£12m)? There's probably a few good ones, but not too many. His best signings were well before that though, Keano, Solskjaer, Irwin, Schmeichel.

More lately he's done well by not being afraid to splash out. You want a top-class centre back, so you pay £28m for Ferdinand. You want a top-class centre forward, so you pay £30m for Rooney. There's a few iffy ones like Hargreaves and Berbatov, but in general you know what you're getting. When Benitez has went big with Mascherano and Torres, that's when he's got the quality players.

Torres, Mascherano, Alonso probably fall into that category with Evra, Vidic and Ronaldo.

I'm basically on the fence in this debate because I think Ikki is too pro-Benitez but some of you lot are perhaps going a bit too far the other way. A lot of the crap players he signed were transitional signings as I said, but as I also said he is now at a point where that's no longer acceptable. Not seen them play yet this season so can't comment on what his latest signings are like.

When Ferguson signed Rooney though, it wasn't so much that he was looking for a centre-forward, he just wanted to sign him. had Rooney pledged his future to Everton, Ferguson wouldn't have signed someone else. At that point, anyway. I'm sure he would have done once he realised Alan Smith was ****.

 

[GIMH]

Carragher had played full-back for Houllier's tenure and only started to look awesome as a CB under Benitez. Hyypia was awesome in 2001, was merely very good in 2005. Henchoz wasn't even good in 2005 and barely played. Riise was simply an average player. The weakest LB by a distance of the top 4 when he was with us.

That team was relatively crap, and what made winning the CL even more impressive is that we had so many injured players that year.

Carragher certainly had played centre-back under Houllier even if he was mainly employed as a full-back. It's not like Benitez though, "I know let's try him in the middle," everyone knew he could do it. Think you're a bit harsh in calling Riise average, he had a cack final season but was a very good servant for Liverpool in general.

I agree that the team was relatively crap though, that year (as in Houllier's last, 03-04) was probably the weakest Man United side of the last 16 years or so and they finished comfortably 3rd.

 

[GIMH]

So annoyed about the Eduardo punishment tbh.
If he was caught during the match it would've been a yellow card offence but because of the referees poor decision making he suffers a 2 match ban? In the league 5 yellow cards = a 1 match ban, It doesn't add up. Especially when you factor in something like the Ian Hume incident (GIMH mentioned it earlier IIRC). In that situation where a player can not be punished on top of a card during the match, no matter how serious.

It's bizarre.

You know, that's a good point about the yellow card, I hadn't thought of it like that. I've actually long advocated a straight red for diving, but the rules disagree and therefore the highest punishment should surely be a retrospectively applied yellow card?

 

[roseboy64]

Pretty sure Rooney was bought before Alan Smith.


Oh wait no. same transfer window.

 

[GIMH]

That's all well and good, you're wrong though

He signed for United after Leeds were relegated, which was 04. Rooney also signed in the summer of 04, but not until the season had started.

edit - he actually scored a beauty in the Charity Shield. I remember watching it and my Stepdad said, "he'll do well there," but obviously the scouse fat manc **** changed all that, Smith had injury problems as well, and let's face it, was never Man U quality

 

[Pothas]

Will always remember the Rooney saga, first because of Freddy Shepherd's laughable atempt to buy him and then because I was at Old Trafford for Man utd v Everton on the weekend he sighed, a rumour was started at half time that Chelsea had bought him at the last minute. Proved to be total rubbish but was fun at the time.

 

[GIMH]

I remember the night Rooney made his Man U debut, scored a hat-trick in the CL IIRC. Was working in a boozer, Everton fans wanted to cry with every goal he scored, the Liverpool fans wanted to laugh but then realised who he was playing for and didn't quite know what to do.

 

[Ikki]

Carragher certainly had played centre-back under Houllier even if he was mainly employed as a full-back. It's not like Benitez though, "I know let's try him in the middle," everyone knew he could do it. Think you're a bit harsh in calling Riise average, he had a cack final season but was a very good servant for Liverpool in general.

Yeh, but Carragher wasn't what we know him to be under Benitez. He was known to be a good and reliable full-back, I think it'd be a stretch to say it was established under Houllier that he was a world-class CB.

As much as I like Riise and as you point out he was a good servant; but this is relative to the players around him. In the rest of the top 4 sides, he'd be on the bench at best. His best years were probably before Rafa had arrived.

I agree that the team was relatively crap though, that year (as in Houllier's last, 03-04) was probably the weakest Man United side of the last 16 years or so and they finished comfortably 3rd.

It wasn't good, as you say, and what made it worse is that the players coming through weren't world-beaters either. A lot of those players were middling, and IMO only a few could have been called world-class. We won because we played smart, defensive and on the counter. People seem to forget how massive underdogs we were all the way through. What more, IIRC everybody bar Carra (or Hyypia - I can't remember) were injured that year.

As much as I appreciate the players that won the CL and will hold a special memory for them, I thank god Rafa didn't simply settle for them and went on to recruit as many players as we eventually have now. Where his spending differs with Fergie is that Rafa didn't break the transfer record multiple times before winning a title. For the first 3 years our highest transfers were Alonso (10), Crouch (7) and Kuyt (10). If we hadn't won the CL we'd have even less money.

I also agree that Rafa and the team should now push on buying better quality players as we have the infrastructure inside the team to accommodate them, but we still won't have the spending power of a United, Chelsea, City or maybe even a Tottenham. But for now, that's probably enough for us to challenge properly.

 

[GIMH]

I dunno about Carragher, he went to Euro 2004 as a centre-back, looked set to be the 3rd choice (ie first replacement) but then Erikkson decided to pick King ahead of him when Campbell missed the first game, mainly because of the way Henry had tormented Carragher a few months earlier I think.

 

[Ikki]

Carra was a utility man in England, though. Even after winning the CL he was being used as a RB in the English side. I won't generalise on England as I am positive I wouldn't know as much about them as you; but for Liverpool it really was one of the talking points that season when Carragher was converted into a full-fledged CB.

 

[GIMH]

No look, I do agree that it was Benitez who made the decision to get him playing there all the time, I just don't think it was a stroke of genius as everyone thought he should have been playing centre-back, that's all. Same as the way he changed Gerrard's role somewhat as Houllier had had him playing quite a deep-lying role.

Funnily enough, all this footy talk today as got me wanting to play FM, think I will tonight. A sign that I'm finally accepting that the footy season is here. Might start getting excited about it now that the Ashes are over (how did they finish Ikki, I missed that )

 

[cpr]

Hmm, 2p in the pot now

Eduardo: Guilty, despicable, dont care, deserves a ban. So did Ronaldo about 100 times, Rooney, Gerrard etc etc. Cant remember me ever condoning a dive by a utd player, so cant exactly cite double standards here. What makes it even worse is Eduardo getting up with a big grin on his face, instantly reminded me of a certain Ronaldo wink. TBH i'd give anyone caught like that a 3 match ban.

Liverpool: Interesting, were constantly being beaten with the 'Huge debt ruining the game, not financially viable, utd ****ed if the creditors come', yet on the other hand we've got all this spending power that poor Liverpool cant match, despite their competition performances (and prize money) coming very close to ours in recent years, worldwide fame and fanbase pushing close to ours. Which card do you want to play folks?????? Please tell me again why Liverpool cant match our outlay when we've got such unmanagable debts?

Also 'Benitez has had to replace the whole team since 2004, that explains his outlay'. So's Alex lads, only Rio, Giggs, Scholes, O'Shea and Fletcher (notice most of them from our youth ranks) were playing for us before the 04/05 season kicked off (chuck in a crocked Neviller too)

Also, those figures of gross and net, what dates they from? Reckon we can knock £80mil off ours y'see (and I bet, like all, they include £30m for Tevez when we actually only coughed up 5)

 

[sledger]

What Irks me about Liverpool, or at least it would do if I was a fan, is the fact that Benitez routinely shells out on players who do not seem to be up to the grade, and then complains that he hasn't been given the financial resources required to mount a proper challenge. Would drive me mad.