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Greatest All-rounder- Prelim Poll 1: Choose FOUR all-rounders
- Thread starter bagapath
- Start date
silentstriker
The Wheel is Forever
Botham is weird. If I were to peak players at their peaks and judge them, he'd be the second name on my all time list behind Bradman. In fact, you could make an argument with him being the absolute first name on that list. I'm not sure if I'd agree with that argument, but it would be a legitimate position to take. Botham's peak was before I was born, I spent some time two months ago before I came to Europe watching some Botham clips from the late seventies/early eighties. Holy crap, that man was a tornado. It almost boggles my mind how someone could have been so good at so many things at the same time.
All that said, but if we get him as a whole, he would not make my top four all rounders.
All that said, but if we get him as a whole, he would not make my top four all rounders.
Lillian Thomson
Hall of Fame Member
I've said a few times before to hoots of derision that Botham is the most supremely gifted cricketer in history, but there's little doubt about it. Unfortunately all his gifts were on the field and didn't include practicing in the nets or working on his fitness.
zaremba
Cricketer Of The Year
Yep I'll not disagree with a word of this. No hoots of derision from me.
JBH001
International Regular
Nor from me. Although, tbf, things like his back injury were out of his control. However, things like his weight gain, which affected his outswinger, certainly were not.
But its difficult to go beyond his all-round feats during his 5 - 7 year peak, and his ability to turn the game with bat, ball, or in the field.
But its difficult to go beyond his all-round feats during his 5 - 7 year peak, and his ability to turn the game with bat, ball, or in the field.
bagapath
International Captain
this is about test cricket. grace picked up only 9 wickets in his 22 tests. including him in the poll looks impossible.
i can add hammond as a wild card in the second poll. but he was not going to make the cut otherwise since he didnt take enough four wicket hauls to qualify.
did you vote only for woolley??
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bagapath
International Captain
this is a prelim poll. one more poll with batting allrounders, bowling all rounders and bits and pieces all rounders will be done before the grand final. i am sure you will consider botham worthy of being in the final 6 at least.
zaremba
Cricketer Of The Year
Not having a go at you, Baggers, I enjoy these polls and you do them extraordinarily well. It's just that on top of all the usual bickering I fear that we're going to get a lot of "Botham was a bowling all-rounder not an all-round all-rounder" sort of quarrelling.
Point taken about it being Test cricket only.
Yes I did vote for Woolley only, because I can't make up my mind about the others, they'll all get plenty of votes anyway, and because Woolley needs my vote
bagapath
International Captain
and jack gregory too, please
bagapath
International Captain
he scored 14 centuries, zaremba !!!
after 51 tests, at the end of the '82 series against india, his batting record stood at
51 76 3 2833 208 38.80 4632 61.16 11 10 8 311 39
david gower's numbers at the end of the same game were
41 69 7 2700 200* 43.54 5784 46.68 4 13 5 307 6
botham could have played for england purely as a batsman up to that point. and 51 tests is a whole career any which way one looks at it.
he is the purest all round-all rounder along with keith miller in the history of test cricket. even the great khan should have scored more centuries to be in their league, although he was probably the most valuable all rounder of the lot being an undisputed great with the ball. botham or miller wont make it to the top 20 of either batting or bowling lists whereas imran is a definite top 10 bowler of all time.
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zaremba
Cricketer Of The Year
Yeah I realise that this is all true about Botham, I was just using him as an example - almost any other all-rounder would have done.
(Arguably Botham was a bowling all-rounder - I think he classifies himself as having been one. I often wonder what would have happened had he bowled against himself - I imagine that Botham the Bowler would have tried to bowl medium-paced bouncers at Botham the Batsman, who would have compulsively hooked them to midwicket)
(Arguably Botham was a bowling all-rounder - I think he classifies himself as having been one. I often wonder what would have happened had he bowled against himself - I imagine that Botham the Bowler would have tried to bowl medium-paced bouncers at Botham the Batsman, who would have compulsively hooked them to midwicket)
bagapath
International Captain
in victories...
Code:
IT Botham (Eng) 33 1951 149* 43.35 8 15 172 8/34 20.09 15 47 0
KR Miller (Aus) 31 1779 147 43.39 4 13 113 7/60 19.60 7 23 0
Imran Khan (Pak) 26 900 117 36.00 1 5 155 8/58 14.50 11 10 0
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bagapath
International Captain
the sean! i cant find your earlier post expressing relief that woolley got one vote at least. i am happy too. i hope noble and gregory dont end up with no support either.
unless fans of old cricketers, like archie mac, come out and vote in favor of faulkner I dont see him overtaking kapil.
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subshakerz
Hall of Fame Member
This is the problem I have with rating all-rounders. Do we rate them based on how balanced their batting/balling skills are as all-rounders, or do we rate them as cricketers overall? For example, you could argue that Kapil is a better all-rounder than Hadlee, but saying that makes it seem as if Kapil is also the better cricketer, which he is not.
I prefer your terminology, 'pure' all-rounder vs 'valuable' all-rounder.I would rate Miller and Botham as purer but Sobers and Imran as more valuable in the final analysis.
SJS
Hall of Fame Member
One of the finest comparisons of the five all rounders of the 70's/80's that one can find is in five different chapters in Trevor Bailey's book "The Greatest Since My Time". Bailey was not only a first class all rounder himself but is easily one of the best amongst cricketer turned writers you can come across. He particularly excells in portraits of cricketers he played with and watched later.
He first wrote a book called "The greatest of My Time" which covered cricketers from after the end of WW II till 1968 and then this second one which covers twenty years from 1968 to 1988. In addition, he has several other books among which the two with Trueman (one each on fast bowlers and spinners) again excel in the pen portraits he paints.
Unlike many writers, Bailey goes into great technical details dissecting the complete bowling for example from run up, action, delivery, speed, movement in the air and off the wicket, line and length, propensity to bowl short, mastery of the bouncer, type of bouncer; in other words the works. It is fascinating to read his five chapters on Botham, Imran, Kapil, Hadlee and Proctor.
He has not ranked all five together but is clear that he "would rate Richard Hadlee as the most formidable bowler. " He adds, "on occasions others, especially Imran and Botham, might return more spectacular figures, but day to day over a decade, for both New Zealand, where the bowling in his support was limited. and for Notts, he stands out on his own in all forms of the game."
In batting, however, he delivers a surprise. He says, "I would rate Imran Khan as the most accomplished batsman of these superb all-rounders, yet he will be remembered most for his feats as a fast bowler, despite having played some magnificent innings, especially when Pakistan were in trouble..."
Its clear from further reading that he rates Botham second in batting.
In fielding, of course, it looks like he sees no comparison between Botham and the rest.
Interesting.
He first wrote a book called "The greatest of My Time" which covered cricketers from after the end of WW II till 1968 and then this second one which covers twenty years from 1968 to 1988. In addition, he has several other books among which the two with Trueman (one each on fast bowlers and spinners) again excel in the pen portraits he paints.
Unlike many writers, Bailey goes into great technical details dissecting the complete bowling for example from run up, action, delivery, speed, movement in the air and off the wicket, line and length, propensity to bowl short, mastery of the bouncer, type of bouncer; in other words the works. It is fascinating to read his five chapters on Botham, Imran, Kapil, Hadlee and Proctor.
He has not ranked all five together but is clear that he "would rate Richard Hadlee as the most formidable bowler. " He adds, "on occasions others, especially Imran and Botham, might return more spectacular figures, but day to day over a decade, for both New Zealand, where the bowling in his support was limited. and for Notts, he stands out on his own in all forms of the game."
In batting, however, he delivers a surprise. He says, "I would rate Imran Khan as the most accomplished batsman of these superb all-rounders, yet he will be remembered most for his feats as a fast bowler, despite having played some magnificent innings, especially when Pakistan were in trouble..."
Its clear from further reading that he rates Botham second in batting.
In fielding, of course, it looks like he sees no comparison between Botham and the rest.
Interesting.