• Welcome to the Cricket Web forums, one of the biggest forums in the world dedicated to cricket.

    You are currently viewing our boards as a guest which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our free community you will have access to post topics, respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free so please, join the Cricket Web community today!

    If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us.

Viv Richards v Sunil Gavaskar

Who was greater?


  • Total voters
    59

subshakerz

International Coach
well, there is the accusation that gavaskar didnt play the four pronged windies battery enough; the fact is viv never played them.

it is a tough, tough call. i will eventually have to go with viv but it is not easy for me.
Viv can hardly be faulted with that. He didn't seem to have problems against the other fast bowlers he faced.

While recognizing that between all-time great batsmen other than Bradman there really arent huge differences, I would still pick Viv in my team before Gavaskar. Granted, they have different roles, but the intimidation factor of Richards and his faster scoring rate are factors.
 

subshakerz

International Coach
Would be interested to hear your reasonings for this. Is it stat based, or are there other factors? The most common arguments I could think of are a) Viv averaging "only" 50 despite not having to face his own attack and b) Sunny's reputation/numbers against WI being somewhat misleading. But if your thinking is different I'd be interested to hear more about it. :)
Viv averaging "only" 50 means he passed the baseline criteria for judging most all-time great batsmen. Beyond that, unless there is some serious deficiency in his record (which there isn't), he should be judged on playing style and peer opinion, and he scores higher than Gavaskar in both regards.

Gavaskar's record against the West Indies is misleading. Had he actually averaged 65 against the quartet there may be a good case for considering him better than his peers. As it is, he averaged over 40 against them, and even taking into account it was largely scored in drawn matches, it is still pretty decent.
 

Sanz

Hall of Fame Member
Yeah it is not an easy call. Both are top notch test batsmen. I can't decide for myself whom to rate higher.

Well, The Question was Who was the 'Greater' Batsman of the two and I have no doubt in my mind that Viv was easily the greater batsman because of the impact he had on fans and on the game itself. I have not met one individual in my life who has not had an admiration for how Viv Played. His batting kept cricket interesting and entertaining in the times of dull and boring draws and inspired a whole new generations of cricketers like Tendulkar etc to play his style of cricket although I don't believe anyone did as well as him.

WI had so many great players during Viv's time but none could take his place as the ultimate entertainer and match winner.
 

Sanz

Hall of Fame Member
Oh and I hope this thread doesn't get lost in the same statistical maze that has surrounded this forum in every discussion in recent months.
 

The Sean

Cricketer Of The Year
Viv averaging "only" 50 means he passed the baseline criteria for judging most all-time great batsmen. Beyond that, unless there is some serious deficiency in his record (which there isn't), he should be judged on playing style and peer opinion, and he scores higher than Gavaskar in both regards.

Gavaskar's record against the West Indies is misleading. Had he actually averaged 65 against the quartet there may be a good case for considering him better than his peers. As it is, he averaged over 40 against them, and even taking into account it was largely scored in drawn matches, it is still pretty decent.
No argument with any of this - I was just asking Dissector whether they were the reasons he thought them overrated, or whether he had others.
 

Migara

International Coach
No one really got on top of him - he didn't really fail against anyone
Sir Viv has however told that with Chandrashekar the score is even. I think Lillie, Hadlee and Qdir all had many moments of theirs against Richards, but far less than Chandra IMO.

However Viv wins this one easily.
 
Last edited:

Ikki

Hall of Fame Member
Yet he averaged 55 in games against Chandra and was taken 4 times by him in 14 innings. I don't think that's even, let alone a fail. He averaged 48 in maches against Lillee but was dismissed 9 times in 19 innings. I think a tad too much is made of Richards' rating of Chandra.
 
Last edited:

bagapath

International Captain
was viv as successful as sunny against imran?

EDIT: I guess not.

Against Imran...

SM Gavaskar (India) 1978-1987 18 31 3 1622 166 57.92 4 9 1
IVA Richards (WI) 1977-1988 14 24 1 1074 123 46.69 2 7 1
 
Last edited:

Dissector

International Debutant
When I say Richards is overrated I mean that some people consider him the pre-eminent batsman of the last 30 years standing head and shoulders above the other batsmen of the period. I would put him among the best but not significantly better than Chappell, Lara and Tendulkar.
 

silentstriker

The Wheel is Forever
Viv Richards. Mind you, I wouldn't have him after Bradman or anything, but if I am making a team and I had to pick one, I'd have him. Oddly, in my all time XI, Gavaskar makes it but Viv doesn't (due to more competition for the middle order).

A batting order of:

Hobbs
Gavaskar
Bradman
Tendulkar
Chappell
Sobers
Gilchrist
 
Last edited:

SJS

Hall of Fame Member
Although I have voted for Richards, I think this is not a fair contest. Viv's game would make him much lesser than Gavaskar as an opener and vice-versa.

Its something like (though not exactly the same) asking McGrath or Murali?
 

MrIncredible

U19 Cricketer
Sachin averages mid to low 30s against the following teams with their great fast bowlers in tow:
Aust: Mcgrath
Pak: Wasim, Waqar
RSA: Donald


Obviously, those bowlers werenot necessarily the ones responsible for his dismissals in some instances but their presence certainly curtailed Tendy to a great extent, that i can conclude that he was a class below Viv against quality fast bowlers.

**WI: Walsh/Amby (55 over one test series)
 

SJS

Hall of Fame Member
Sachin averages mid to low 30s against the following teams with their great fast bowlers in tow:
Aust: Mcgrath
Pak: Wasim, Waqar
RSA: Donald


Obviously, those bowlers werenot necessarily the ones responsible for his dismissals in some instances but their presence certainly curtailed Tendy to a great extent, that i can conclude that he was a class below Viv against quality fast bowlers.

**WI: Walsh/Amby (55 over one test series)
Have you checked how often Viv Richards faced a world pace attack (two world class pace bowlers together) and how he fared against them?
 

slippyslip

U19 12th Man
I find it interesting to suggest that Richards never faced quality fast bowling in his career.

Willis, Botham, Hadlee, Imran, Lillee, Kapil Dev. All took over 300 test wickets and besides Botham and Dev averaged around 25 or under (Willis was 25.2)

None of them West Indian.

Back in Richards day the ball definitely dominated the bat. During the 80's there was Border, Miandad and Richards - and for the first half of the 80's Gavaskar. Then a massive gulf to the next tier of batsmen.

Very few batsmen averaged over 40 in this era and even fewer between 45-50. Look at Gooch's average in the 80's. Well below 40. Even Dilip Vengsarkar, someone who was viewed as a very good batsman averaged 42. David Gower, England's top batsman in the 80's averaged 44. Greenidge and Haynes averaged 42 and 44 respectively.

Since Sobers only Richards and Lara have retired with a career batting average over 50 amongst West Indian batsmen.

If non West Indian bowling was so weak from the 70's to the late 80's then why did none of the other West Indian batsmen not average over 50? Kalicharan, Llyod, Haynes, Grenidge, Richardson.

And what about the fact that Indian pitches were a lot more suited to batting than the West Indian pitches. If you look at West Indies cricket during Richards time they didnt actually make a lot of huge scores, nowhere near the amount of runs Australia scored when they were dominating. The West Indian philosophy was that if they got out for a low score they would just bowl the opposition out for an ever lower score.
 

silentstriker

The Wheel is Forever
And what about the fact that Indian pitches were a lot more suited to batting than the West Indian pitches.
While Indian pitches were more suited to batting, Sunny's average overseas is higher than his average at home, I believe. So this point is moot.
 

SJS

Hall of Fame Member
Okay. Before I start, let me affirm that I voted for Richards here; I am a big time fan of the great man and not as enamoured by Gavaskar (another truly great) as some of my countrymen. However thats no reason to overlook facts. I have already written, in great detail with stats and other information, on CC about Gavaskar not having to face as much of great bowling as people assume without looking at details.

However Richards record also needs looking into.

Viv Richards against fast bowling.

During the time Richards played international cricket the fastest bowling( and the highest number of top drawer fast bowlers) for the longest time, in the world came from his own country. Obviously he did not have to face them in his own country.

The next rung of fast bowling came from Australia and Pakistan. In Australia it was in the form of Lilee and Thomson in the early phase of Viv's career and from Pakistan in the form of Imran and Sarfaraz and later Imran and Akram. Richards wasn't around to play Waqar at his best in Tests.

India had no fast bowlers. Kapil was fast medium at best and that was not the kind of speed to bother Richards (or Gavaskar for that matter).

So lets see how much of these top drawer attacks did he face and how did he fare.

Against Australia

Richards played in eight series (34 Test matches) against Australia and averaged 44.4 in these. Of these, only three series had really top class pace attacks (at least two top class bowlers). Lets get the three which I do not consider top class, out of the way.

1. 1983-1984 WIN v AUS
Lillee and Thomson had left the scene and no great pair of fast bowlers was to appear on the scene till McDermott and Merv Hughes bowled in tandem at the start of the 90's
Bowlers ...
  • Lawson,
  • Alderman,
  • Hogg,
  • Hogan

2. 1984-1985 AUS v WIN
  • Lawson
  • Hogg
  • Holland
  • Bennett

3. 1988-1989 AUS v WIN
  • Hughes
  • Steve Waugh
  • Hohns

That leaves five series. Here are Viv's figures in these..
Code:
Series        	 M	 50s	 100s 	 Runs	 Avg	Bowlers[/B]				
1975-1976 	6	2	1	426	38.7	Lillee, Thomson. Gilmour				
1977-1978 	2	0	0	62	31.0	Thomson, Wayne Clarke, Yardley				
1979-1980 	3	3	1	386	96.5	Lillee, Thomson, Dymock				
1981-1982 	3	1	0	160	26.7	Lillee, Thomson, Yardley				
1990-1991 	5	2	0	174	24.9	Hughes, McDermott, Mathews				
											
[B]OVERALL     	19	8	2	1208	40.3	[/B]
Well there is only one series there befitting a batsman of Viv's class.

Against Pakistan
Richards played five series (16 Tests) against Pakistan.

The first of these 1974-1975 PAK v WIN had no Imran who was still struggling to make his mark in Pakistani cricket. Although Viv averaged just 5.67 in the series, I have taken it out to be consistent since the pace bowlers for Pakistan do not fit the criteria we set. These bowlers were...
  • Sarfaraz
  • Masood
  • Intekhab (spinner)

Then after a series with both Imran and Sarfaraz, he faced Pakistan in '1980-1981 PAK v WIN'. Imran was virtually alone to handle the pace attack with no worthwhile support. The bowling was dominated by spinners Iqbal Qasim, Abdul Qadir and Nazir Mohammad who between them bowled 71 percent of the overs bowled in the series. Imran bowled another 18 percent.
  • Imran
  • Iqbal Qasim
  • Nazir Mohammad
  • Abdul Qadir

The three series in which Richards played a solid Pakistani pace attack are...
Code:
[B]Series        	 M	 50s	 100s	 Runs	 Avg	[/B]	
	
1976-1977 	5	2	0	257	28.6	Imran, Sarfaraz, Altaf
1986-1987 	2	0	0	73	24.3	Imran, Akram, Qadir
1987-1988 	2	1	1	278	69.5	Imran, Akram, Qadir
								
[B]Overall      	9	3	1	608	38.0		[/B]
Again one really good series.

England did not pose any great fast bowling problems as far as speed is concerned. Snow played his last series as Viv was playing his first and played only three of the five Tests. That was the end of his career. England never produced any truly fast bowlers after that. Bowlers of lower pace, inspite of lateral movement never bothered Viv. He played them enough in England and blasted them all over the place. Thats why I do not consider England for this argument.

PS In the 1986-87 series against Pakistan, I have taken only two Tests instead of three since Akram was not available for the third Test and Pakistan opened the bowling with Salim Jaffer. In that match Richards scored 70 in the first innings (28 in the second) which was his only fifty in the series.
 
Last edited:

Pigeon

Banned
Dont see how Tendy makes it ahead of Viv esp when ur talking about facing all time new ball bowlers. Viv was clearly ahead of Sachin vs quality pace
:yawn:

There goes another Tendulkar reference in a completely unrelated thread.

BTW all those who are saying Richards > Tendulkar are just frankly kidding themselves. Tendulkar opens in ODIs for their info and damn how!
 

Top