Greatest West Indian Batsman

[MrIncredible]

It doesn't need any explanations. It is just one of those things. It happens. It is a statistical oddity.

Thats why I mentioned Vivian Richards in Barbados. Richards played 13 first class matches (23 innings) in his career against Barbados and averaged 27.3. One needn't try and understand why this happened to Richard. There is no reason whatsoever. It can happen to anyone, howsoever great.

I did not know Richard had such a record in Barbados but I knew there will be something like that. There is every chance of that being so with almost anyone who has played for a long time.

It does not fly in the face of logic. It tells you that there is no logic in such things. You need eight good balls to get out for low scores in eight innings and they can all be at a stretch too.




Barrington once got into a patch and was hardly able to stay at the wicket for any amount of time. Someone asked him if he was badly out of form. He said, "I dont know. I am getting out almost as soon as I go in. I have to play long enough to know if I am out of form."

You have to try and understand what that means.

Richard's record in the List A matches against some English sides is strange.

Hampshire - he played 18 games against them and averaged 23.29.

In 17 games against Middlesex he averaged 22.5.

In 17 games against Worcestershire he averaged 19.26 !

14 games against Yorkshire and an average of 23.84.

Strange for the guy who was in my humble opinion the greatest one day batsman of all time, Tendulkar included.

He averaged, in ODI's

• 50.9 against Australia
• 57.8 against England
• 54.1 against New Zealand
• 55.5 against Sri lanka
• 47.8 against India

There is no explanation for those figures against those county sides where in 56 games he had no centuries and just 7 fifties.

I think that his record vs Barbados has a lot to do with the strenght of the B'dos attack of the Viv Richards era. I mean he would have come up against bowlers like: Marshall, Garner, Wayne Daniel, Sylvester Clarke et al all of whom would have moon walked their way into any bowling attack of that era.

 

[SJS]

I think that his record vs Barbados has a lot to do with the strenght of the B'dos attack of the Viv Richards era. I mean he would have come up against bowlers like: Marshall, Garner, Wayne Daniel, Sylvester Clarke et al all of whom would have moon walked their way into any bowling attack of that era.

If thats taken as the case, we would, of course have to rate Mr Richards quite a few pegs below other batsmen of the day who performed relatively better against the same bowlers.

 

[MrIncredible]

The difference between Pakistan and NZ of Sobers time is practically none. India was only slightly better than them. 3 of the 5 teams Sobers faced were pretty weak TBH. I did a statistical comparison before on a Sobers thread and those 3 were pretty much like the Zimbabwe of the 90s, and being generous only a little bit better. There is definitely some sort of inflation. The fact that he failed against NZ is a pretty weird blot on his otherwise fantastic record.

U got to be kidding? u seriously think the Pakistan and Indian teams of the 60s and early 70s (Sobers' era) were on par with Zim of the 90s? If I were from Pak/Ind i would be seriously insulted.

 

[Ikki]

U got to be kidding? u seriously think the Pakistan and Indian teams of the 60s and early 70s (Sobers' era) were on par with Zim of the 90s? If I were from Pak/Ind i would be seriously insulted.

Yes, I certainly think that. The Zim of the late 90s I would say were as good as those. The facts are there. Check the batting/bowling stats and their win/loss/draw records. I posted these a while ago, you may search and check them.

P.S. Sobers played for much of the 50s also.

 

[SJS]

Weekes averaged 29.11 against Trinidad in 19 games for Barbados but averaged in the mid fifties against the other teams in West Indies.

The bowlers who bowled to Weekes in these games were

• In the first half - Pierre, Jones, Fergussen, Skeete, Pouchett, Burnett, Jagbir Singh, King, Butler.
  
• In the second half - Peter, Oliver, Asghar Ali, Roberts, another Roberts, Babb, CK Singhm Murray, Gorby and Gupte.

The only two names that I recognise there are Gupte and Inshan Ali of whom Gupte was a great bowler. He bowled for Trinidad against Weekes in only one match, his last, and Weekes did not get out to him.

Still cant find out why Weekes could not score against Trinidad.

 

[MrIncredible]

If memory serves me correctly, Pakistan beat teams like: India, England, West indies, Aust. NZ early in their test experience. Zim in the 90s if i recall won sumthing like 3 out of 40 tests. Beating only Ind and Pak. Thats all the other test sides. During the Sobers era India beat all the other test teams (in a series) either home or away (except for Aust). U can go on and on about bowling this batting average that but results are what matter. And Ind/Pak of Sobers' era were far more competitive teams than Zim of the 90s and therefore were not minnows.


In any event Ikki Sobers also averaged like 45 vs Aust and 60+ vs England so although he may be perceived as somewhat of a minnow basher. He also did good/great against the 2 established teams of his side. Also dont know y the ICC decided to stricken the 2 world XI series from his records (they were originally given test status) when they were far more competitive than the recent farce between Aust and a world XI

 

[MrIncredible]

If thats taken as the case, we would, of course have to rate Mr Richards quite a few pegs below other batsmen of the day who performed relatively better against the same bowlers.

I wouldnt. Facing them in tests vs 1st class imo are 2 diff situations. I do believe that Viv would have generally come off 2nd best had he had to face his own attack but i believe he would have still averaged 40+ which is more than acceptable. I think Viv just had a thing for the big occasion (tests) where he would have tried to lift his game.

 

[SJS]

I think that his record vs Barbados has a lot to do with the strenght of the B'dos attack of the Viv Richards era. I mean he would have come up against bowlers like: Marshall, Garner, Wayne Daniel, Sylvester Clarke et al all of whom would have moon walked their way into any bowling attack of that era.

That really was an interesting point you made. I just checked up all the matches Richards played against Barbados. He did not face the greats like Marshall and Garner together except in one game and though he got out to Marshall once in that match he scored 70 before he was out which is his highest score against Barbados..

He got out only twice to Garner and once to Marshall.

Here is the chronological list of the bowlers who got him for Barbados. Its not hugely daunting.

[B]Bowler       	Score[/B]

Boyce       	5
Howard      	13
Farmer      	11
Farmer      	52
Holder       	11
Padmore   	21
Armstrong       13
Maxwell     	54
Daniell       	4
Alleyne      	13
Garner       	4
Mosley      	46
Daniell       	0
Phillips	45
Garner       	16
Marshall	70
Mosley      	19
Cummins   	7

I seriously thought you may have made an important breakthrough but doesn't look like it.

 

[MrIncredible]

Well then i couldnt begin to tell u y he failed vs B'dos then. O and since we r on the topic of great West Indian batsmen happy birthday Sir Garry, the greatest living cricketer imho

 

[Ikki]

If memory serves me correctly, Pakistan beat teams like: India, England, West indies, Aust. NZ early in their test experience. Zim in the 90s if i recall won sumthing like 3 out of 40 tests. Beating only Ind and Pak. Thats all the other test sides. During the Sobers era India beat all the other test teams (in a series) either home or away (except for Aust). U can go on and on about bowling this batting average that but results are what matter. And Ind/Pak of Sobers' era were far more competitive teams than Zim of the 90s and therefore were not minnows.

I can't remember all those stats to be completely honest but I remember the gist of them: NZ, Pakistan and India weren't very good. They were quite inferior to WIndies, Australia and England of the time. They won very few against the top, drew here and there (as was the slow nature of the game then) and mainly did better home than away. Most of their successes came against each other and if we rate them overall, it would be India > Pakistan > NZ but very little difference between them. It was towards the end of Sobers' career that they got better.

In any event Ikki Sobers also averaged like 45 vs Aust and 60+ vs England so although he may be perceived as somewhat of a minnow basher. He also did good/great against the 2 established teams of his side. Also dont know y the ICC decided to stricken the 2 world XI series from his records (they were originally given test status) when they were far more competitive than the recent farce between Aust and a world XI

I think Sobers is one of the finest batsmen of all time and in the equation when we talk about the 2nd best after Bradman. So when I mention this, I am not trying to demean him as a batsman. Still, it's worthy to point out that his average is a tad high and that shouldn't negatively affect comparisons with others.

 

[SJS]

I wouldnt. Facing them in tests vs 1st class imo are 2 diff situations. I do believe that Viv would have generally come off 2nd best had he had to face his own attack but i believe he would have still averaged 40+ which is more than acceptable. I think Viv just had a thing for the big occasion (tests) where he would have tried to lift his game.

Oh I agree. I was just being sarcastic.

I do not think Viv was being lenient or did not give a ****, as has been so eloquently put by a poster. Viv did not give a **** for any kind of attack. He is the only batsman I have seen at international level who has again and again let out a guffaw at being bowled in a Test match. He played the same game all the time irrespective of the side, the bowler or the occasion. The fact that he helped win so many games and scored so many runs was because he was so damned good not because he tried so much harder.

 

[SJS]

Well then i couldnt begin to tell u y he failed vs B'dos then. O and since we r on the topic of great West Indian batsmen happy birthday Sir Garry, the greatest living cricketer imho

There is no reason. There just doesnt have to be. As I said before, I could find similar stats for so many cricketers you wont have time to read

Its just a statistical oddity.

 

[aussie]

That really was an interesting point you made. I just checked up all the matches Richards played against Barbados. He did not face the greats like Marshall and Garner together except in one game and though he got out to Marshall once in that match he scored 70 before he was out which is his highest score against Barbados..

He got out only twice to Garner and once to Marshall.

Here is the chronological list of the bowlers who got him for Barbados. Its not hugely daunting.

[B]Bowler       	Score[/B]

Boyce       	5
Howard      	13
Farmer      	11
Farmer      	52
Holder       	11
Padmore   	21
Armstrong       13
Maxwell     	54
Daniell       	4
Alleyne      	13
Garner       	4
Mosley      	46
Daniell       	0
Phillips	45
Garner       	16
Marshall	70
Mosley      	19
Cummins   	7

I seriously thought you may have made an important breakthrough but doesn't look like it.

As you said yourself. Its a statistical oddity, we just have to leave it as that.

 

[MrIncredible]

I can't remember all those stats to be completely honest but I remember the gist of them: NZ, Pakistan and India weren't very good. They were quite inferior to WIndies, Australia and England of the time. They won very few against the top, drew here and there (as was the slow nature of the game then) and mainly did better home than away. Most of their successes came against each other and if we rate them overall, it would be India > Pakistan > NZ but very little difference between them. It was towards the end of Sobers' career that they got better.




I think Sobers is one of the finest batsmen of all time and in the equation when we talk about the 2nd best after Bradman. So when I mention this, I am not trying to demean him as a batsman. Still, it's worthy to point out that his average is a tad high and that shouldn't negatively affect comparisons with others.

Pakistan of Sobers' era (late 50s to 70s) beat every other test nation in a series either at home or away. look it up you'll see for ur self. Zim of the 90s only ever beat India and Pakistan. India of Sobers' era beat every other team at home or away. dont see how the 2 sub continent teams remotely compare to that dire Zim team .


Well Sobers is not unique in this respect then. I can think of Tendulkar, Steve Waugh, Kallis etc whose records are somewhat inflated by their records vs minnows (Zim/Bang). Hell even Bradman only ever played against one decent side during his time (England).

 

[SJS]

For me one of the most interesting stat is from Bradman's 1934 England tour. He had scored 950 odd runs in 1930 and with no Larwood and no body line he was expected to do something similar again.

In the first three Tests he played five innings scoring ...

• 29
• 25
• 36
• 13
• 30

133 runs in five innings at 26.6 !!

Then in the fourth Test after Australia were reduced to 37 for 3 by Bill Bowes, Bradman and Ponsford started fighting back and then Ames missed a stumping of Bradman when he was in his fifties.

He scored 548 runs in two innings - that and the next one in the fifth Test. Scoring another 77 in the second innings for good measure.

I have always wondered if Larwood was also playing for England and if Ames had not missed that stumping would Bradman's career have changed. England badly needed to believe they could contain him to human scores like a century every third Test maybe and 500 runs a series or something. But it was this kind of massacre that was so demoralising for them and this when they were really the better side but for Bradman.

 

[Ikki]

Pakistan of Sobers' era (late 50s to 70s) beat every other test nation in a series either at home or away. look it up you'll see for ur self. Zim of the 90s only ever beat India and Pakistan. India of Sobers' era beat every other team at home or away. dont see how the 2 sub continent teams remotely compare to that dire Zim team .

That's because they played a lot of series back then consisting of 1 or 2 matches, where they could win 1 and win a series then lose every thing else and yet maintain they've won a series.

Here is a win/loss/draw record for the 3 teams in question:

Pakistan

India

New Zealand

Actually, it seems I'm a bit off. These stats suggest that Pakistan did better than India - even though they drew 10 times with each other. I don't consider these teams strong. For the sake of argument, let's say a bit better than Zimbabwe of the late 90s. New Zealand looks to have a comparable record to Zimbabwe though. So...

Well Sobers is not unique in this respect then. I can think of Tendulkar, Steve Waugh, Kallis etc whose records are somewhat inflated by their records vs minnows (Zim/Bang). Hell even Bradman only ever played against one decent side during his time (England).

Yes true, they all did. But when 3/5 teams you face are not very strong, it will inflate your record moreso than when it's 2/9 teams.

 

[Athlai]

That Indian team has a 5-9 win ratio against England. Pretty good in my books 3-12 against Australia isn't that bad either.


Pakistan appear competitive, particularly against the Windies.

Only NZ seems dire (besides against SA)

 

[Ikki]

That Indian team has a 5-9 win ratio against England. Pretty good in my books 3-12 against Australia isn't that bad either.


Pakistan appear competitive, particularly against the Windies.

Only NZ seems dire (besides against SA)

Pakistan beat the WIndies when they weren't as strong (in the 50s). Then again, Zimbabwe also has a 2-8 and 2-7 record against Pakistan and India.

 

[MrIncredible]

Yeah and they didnt beat ne one else. And for that matter the series they won vs India was also a one off test and they beat pakistan 1 nil when Pakistan were in position in the 2nd test to win etc. In ne event i just realised sumthing, I rate Viv as the best west Indies batsman anyway and quite easily at that.

 

[Sanz]

U got to be kidding? u seriously think the Pakistan and Indian teams of the 60s and early 70s (Sobers' era) were on par with Zim of the 90s? If I were from Pak/Ind i would be seriously insulted.

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