Run Up

[kevinpietersen]

I play for an under 13 team and i wanted to know what is the right size for my run up. I bowl medium pace and fast.
Please can you tell me the average run up for a medium pace bowl and a fast pace bowl.
Thanks

 

[DCC_legend]

Over 9000 paces.

 

[Neil Pickup]

What is the point in taking the piss out of a 13 year old on an internet forum? Even if he is from Plymouth...

A proper run up doesn't make a much difference to the pace of an action as you might believe: what it affects the most is your rhythm. You should be running up a distance that allows you to be stable and balanced and, most critically, accelerate into the crease. No real reason why any more than eight paces are necessary at U13.

 

[DCC_legend]

What is the point in taking the piss out of a 13 year old on an internet forum? Even if he is from Plymouth...

Didn't see any piss taking TBH, but okay.

 

[kevinpietersen]

What do ya think 9000 paces is?

 

[Tom M]

What is the point in taking the piss out of a 13 year old on an internet forum? Even if he is from Plymouth...

A proper run up doesn't make a much difference to the pace of an action as you might believe: what it affects the most is your rhythm. You should be running up a distance that allows you to be stable and balanced and, most critically, accelerate into the crease. No real reason why any more than eight paces are necessary at U13.

Can't say I agree with you Neil, depending on your action the run-up can be one of the most important things. However, due to the terrible standard of bowling coaching around the world, I doubt many people know when a run-up is important or not.

To the OP: get someone to check if your front leg is straight upon landing at the crease. If it is, work on your run-up. If it's not, it won't make much difference.

 

[slowfinger]

I would just run in with some long strides it gives me adrenaline boost

 

[Neil Pickup]

Can't say I agree with you Neil, depending on your action the run-up can be one of the most important things.

In the consistency of an action, absolutely. In terms of pace, not going to add more than 10%.

 

[Tom M]

In the consistency of an action, absolutely. In terms of pace, not going to add more than 10%.

Neil, please dont' be insulted by this, but what do you think contributes to pace?

 

[Neil Pickup]

I'm pretty much a convert to the Ian Pont school of fast bowling: things like alignment, hip drive chest drive and a complete shoulder rotation.

I've kept to so many bowlers who bowl at the same speed off their short run - most children even bowl faster off a five-step run than the typical 20-step waste of energy. What matters is the last few steps, the acceleration the jump, the gather and the action.

 

[Tom M]

I'm pretty much a convert to the Ian Pont school of fast bowling: things like alignment, hip drive chest drive and a complete shoulder rotation.

I've kept to so many bowlers who bowl at the same speed off their short run - most children even bowl faster off a five-step run than the typical 20-step waste of energy. What matters is the last few steps, the acceleration the jump, the gather and the action.

Okay, I personally have a big problem with Pont's work, mainly through email conversations I've had with him. He himself has admitted that Fast Bowler's Bible is not the complete picture. Noticed how there's no drills to teach the stuff in the book? How do you teach his work to young kids?

I would completely agree about kid's bowling faster off a fwe paces, but that's becuase they're not taught proper mechanics. If coaches understood what makes a bowler truely fast they would realise it can be taught and improved.

 

[Manee]

Okay, I personally have a big problem with Pont's work, mainly through email conversations I've had with him. He himself has admitted that Fast Bowler's Bible is not the complete picture. Noticed how there's no drills to teach the stuff in the book? How do you teach his work to young kids?

I would completely agree about kid's bowling faster off a fwe paces, but that's becuase they're not taught proper mechanics. If coaches understood what makes a bowler truely fast they would realise it can be taught and improved.

You a professional fast bowling coach?

 

[Neil Pickup]

Okay, I personally have a big problem with Pont's work, mainly through email conversations I've had with him. He himself has admitted that Fast Bowler's Bible is not the complete picture. Noticed how there's no drills to teach the stuff in the book? How do you teach his work to young kids?

I would completely agree about kid's bowling faster off a fwe paces, but that's becuase they're not taught proper mechanics. If coaches understood what makes a bowler truely fast they would realise it can be taught and improved.

You don't need prescribed drills if you have the ability to teach and coach. So long as you know what you are working towards then you should not need your drills spoon feeding to you!

How do you teach his work to young kids? By keeping it as intensely simple as possible and concentrating on straight lines, direction and the shoulder rotation. This year my school team (U10s) suffered because of the fact that the opposition bowlers were so horrendously slow that they had no experience of playing against it having trained and netted against proper bowling. Also, with hindsight, the fact that the opposition keepers had the ball coming so slowly they couldn't miss it probably helped...

Until the last game of the season, I could probably happily say that the eight quickest bowlers I'd seen this season were all in my A and B sides. So something was clearly working there.

Of course the Bible isn't going to be the be-all and end-all, but simplicity has to be the key and there isn't going I've seen first-hand evidence (i.e. my flatmate) of a basic application of his ideas boosting pace, accuracy and control.

 

[Tom M]

You a professional fast bowling coach?

No, I'm a mathematician first, then a cricket coach with a very keen interest in the mechanics of fast bowling. Through extensive research, I really do think I can tell you why the quick guys were quick, and why the medium pacers could never get it right.

From my work, I seriously believe that Ian Pont's teachings are misleading. Pont tells you have to muscle the ball, the real quick guys (95+) never did this. Jeff Thompson was the closest to getting it right, although he had a habit of misdirecting his centre of gravity just before release.

If you don't believe me, here's some food for thought: why don't javelin throwers have a bound or a gather or some equivalent? Javelin throwers achieve arm speeds of 32m/s with a javelin that weights nearly 4 times the weight of a cricket ball: some medium pacers don't bowler much faster than this.

The answer is becuase there's a better way of bowling based on very simple physics.

 

[Manee]

You don't need prescribed drills if you have the ability to teach and coach. So long as you know what you are working towards then you should not need your drills spoon feeding to you!

How do you teach his work to young kids? By keeping it as intensely simple as possible and concentrating on straight lines, direction and the shoulder rotation. This year my school team (U10s) suffered because of the fact that the opposition bowlers were so horrendously slow that they had no experience of playing against it having trained and netted against proper bowling. Also, with hindsight, the fact that the opposition keepers had the ball coming so slowly they couldn't miss it probably helped...

Until the last game of the season, I could probably happily say that the eight quickest bowlers I'd seen this season were all in my A and B sides. So something was clearly working there.

That is quite interesting. I remember you ridiculing my action a few years back and telling me to go front on (a move with horrendous consequences) but I'm sure you have come on as a coach since then, I probably didn't apply it properly and also I have great respect that you have attained such results because several, including myself can talk a good game about fast bowling but to do it is something else. (Wow, that's a shocker of a sentence, basically, the tone is meant to be positive).

Do you have msn, would like to discuss my action a little with you if it is no trouble.

Of course the Bible isn't going to be the be-all and end-all, but simplicity has to be the key and there isn't going I've seen first-hand evidence (i.e. my flatmate) of a basic application of his ideas boosting pace, accuracy and control.

Try telling that to Jesus.

 

[Tom M]

You don't need prescribed drills if you have the ability to teach and coach. So long as you know what you are working towards then you should not need your drills spoon feeding to you!

How do you teach his work to young kids? By keeping it as intensely simple as possible and concentrating on straight lines, direction and the shoulder rotation. This year my school team (U10s) suffered because of the fact that the opposition bowlers were so horrendously slow that they had no experience of playing against it having trained and netted against proper bowling. Also, with hindsight, the fact that the opposition keepers had the ball coming so slowly they couldn't miss it probably helped...

Until the last game of the season, I could probably happily say that the eight quickest bowlers I'd seen this season were all in my A and B sides. So something was clearly working there.

Of course the Bible isn't going to be the be-all and end-all, but simplicity has to be the key and there isn't going I've seen first-hand evidence (i.e. my flatmate) of a basic application of his ideas boosting pace, accuracy and control.

Neil, how do you then ensure that your drills teach correct mechanics? It's great to hear that your under 8s did well, but there are many other factors affecting what you've described.

I don't for one second doubt that Pont's teaching will make bowlers get quicker, but he teaches you to bowl with your muscles. Pont KNOWS this. I've talked to him about this. There is a much better way of bowling than he describes in the book.

Here's an analogy. When you do a power clean (a weight training excersise) you use momentum created by a powerful lift off the floor to get the bar to your shoulders. What you DON'T do is use your biceps to lift the ball. In other words all you do is transfer energy from one part of the body to the other. Exactly the same is true of bowling. Brett Lee, jeff thompson, micheal holding, malcolm marshall were all momentum bowlers. Shoaib Akthar is aided by hyperextension of the elbow joint although his biomechanics aren't terrible.

 

[Manee]

No, I'm a mathematician first, then a cricket coach with a very keen interest in the mechanics of fast bowling. Through extensive research, I really do think I can tell you why the quick guys were quick, and why the medium pacers could never get it right.

From my work, I seriously believe that Ian Pont's teachings are misleading. Pont tells you have to muscle the ball, the real quick guys (95+) never did this. Jeff Thompson was the closest to getting it right, although he had a habit of misdirecting his centre of gravity just before release.

If you don't believe me, here's some food for thought: why don't javelin throwers have a bound or a gather or some equivalent? Javelin throwers achieve arm speeds of 32m/s with a javelin that weights nearly 4 times the weight of a cricket ball: some medium pacers don't bowler much faster than this.

The answer is becuase there's a better way of bowling based on very simple physics.

I would love to have a session with Pont if he has a workshop in the London area, for the experience if nothing else. I paid for online analysis but it didn't get me far at all because it didn't tell me how to sort out my action but I suppose you can't give all the answers away when the main business is the face-to-face coaching.

I also have a keen interest in fast bowling, but from no sort of scientific background at all. Tbh though, I do think that the genuinely quick guys did follow Pont's principles, heck, I'd be willing to bet that half of the principles were based on the quick guys themselves. Someone like Brett Lee, for example, has that L shaped load up, the high, long jump (though all coaches tend to teach that as the aim of the jump), the arms swinging in unison and the full follow through, all the times the back foot dragging and then powering through - that seems to be a run down of Pont's principles, actually. Someone like Thomson slung the ball with very effective weight transfer, but one might argue that such an action, by nature, causes injuries and poor accuracy because if you negate the run up to such a large extent, then you don't have a secondary force propelling you towards the target. Of course, such an issue also arises when you have a left arm over the wicket to a right hander where the force needs to be put across the right hander from a straight line run up and so you find yourself pushing the ball in to out, if you lose concentration or start spraying it down the leg side.

 

[Neil Pickup]

How do you ensure that anything creates correct mechanics?

Right, I'm going to go read your thesis on Lagrangians. Back in a bit.

 

[Manee]

Exactly the same is true of bowling. Brett Lee, jeff thompson, micheal holding, malcolm marshall were all momentum bowlers. Shoaib Akthar is aided by hyperextension of the elbow joint although his biomechanics aren't terrible.

Just ftr, Akhtar has hyperextension in all of his joints, which, I believe is what allows him to turn side on so quickly and stretch his body in some quite unorthodox ways such as in that Giles delivery.

 

[Tom M]

How do you ensure that anything creates correct mechanics?

Right, I'm going to go read your thesis on Lagrangians. Back in a bit.

By using medicine balls.

Please feel free to read what was a undergraduate project, but I've moved far far forward since creating that model. I'm not ashamed of it though, since it has allowed me to get to where I am today.

My main problem with Pont is this: Pont learnt this mechanics from baseball pitchers (he went to America after his career finished) Becuase baseball pitchers start standing still, they have a very limited ability to use momentum to generate ball speed, so they have to 'throw' the ball, with a limted use of the stretch-shorten cycle in the hips, chest and elbow.

Cricket players don't have that problem. We can run-up as long as we want, so we can create a lot of momentum (kinetic energy) which can be transferred to the ball. Pont is right: the good guys do have a big hip drive, a big chest drive etc but they don't actively use the hip flexors to drive the hips, it happens becuase they 'block' with thier front leg, stopping a large proportion of thier linear kinetic energy. This energy is transferred from the hips to the arm. This is how the quick guys bowl and how javelin throwers throw (see 'complete book of throws'). They dont' get injured becuase they're using the elastic potential energy of the muscles, not muscular contraction.