Freddie to retire after the Ashes

[four_or_six]

For certain. Flintoff is a very strong if not near-irrefutable contender for a place in a modern-times ODI XI. But it's not, quite, the case that no England fan appreciates his ODI brilliance. Only the majority of the country are indifferent to the format. After all, England's home ODIs have been sell-outs pretty much from the first to most recent.

I think one thing is that I don't remember him doing anything that really impacted a world cup for us (not totally his fault, the rest of the team don't put him in a brilliant position). The other ODIs kind of merge into one.


Edit:
Flintoff's WC matches.

Flintoff's CT matches

 

[Richard]

In the time in which he's been good (ie, emphatically not 1999) he's played just 7 World Cup games of any significance (ie, not against Holland, Namibia, Kenya, Ireland and Bangladesh and not dead matches). In 2002/03 in the game against India he was utterly magnificent; in the next game against Australia he again played decently without being able to put in the sort of one-man show to win the game on his own; he then bowled well in the first 3 important games in the 2007 event when the rest of the side were so wretched it barely mattered, while batting abysmally and bowling poorly in the last two matches (not that his bowling well would have helped England a great deal anyway).

However, with any luke we might be yet to see the best of Flintoff in World Cups... rather a long shot, but you never know. If 2010/11 goes OK for England then he might get a better chance.

Equally in Champions Trophies England have only once got past the first serious round and in that tournament his excellent bowling almost won the final before Courtney Browne and Ian Bradshaw.

And of course it's always been the way for England fans that non-WC\CT ODIs have no long-term significance. Nonetheless, if you really value the format you should still be keeping track of what players are doing and how good they are.

 

[four_or_six]

In the time in which he's been good (ie, emphatically not 1999) he's played just 7 World Cup games of any significance (ie, not against Holland, Namibia, Kenya, Ireland and Bangladesh and not dead matches). In 2002/03 in the game against India he was utterly magnificent; in the next game against Australia he again played decently without being able to put in the sort of one-man show to win the game on his own; he then bowled well in the first 3 important games in the 2007 event when the rest of the side were so wretched it barely mattered, while batting abysmally and bowling poorly in the last two matches (not that his bowling well would have helped England a great deal anyway).

However, with any luke we might be yet to see the best of Flintoff in World Cups... rather a long shot, but you never know. If 2010/11 goes OK for England then he might get a better chance.

Yeah, hopefully. Obviously, stats-wise they look really good... but it's weird that not really many significant performances stand out in my memory.

 

[zaremba]

In the time in which he's been good (ie, emphatically not 1999) he's played just 7 World Cup games of any significance (ie, not against Holland, Namibia, Kenya, Ireland and Bangladesh and not dead matches). In 2002/03 in the game against India he was utterly magnificent; in the next game against Australia he again played decently without being able to put in the sort of one-man show to win the game on his own; he then bowled well in the first 3 important games in the 2007 event when the rest of the side were so wretched it barely mattered, while batting abysmally and bowling poorly in the last two matches (not that his bowling well would have helped England a great deal anyway).

However, with any luke we might be yet to see the best of Flintoff in World Cups... rather a long shot, but you never know. If 2010/11 goes OK for England then he might get a better chance.

Equally in Champions Trophies England have only once got past the first serious round and in that tournament his excellent bowling almost won the final before Courtney Browne and Ian Bradshaw.

And of course it's always been the way for England fans that non-WC\CT ODIs have no long-term significance. Nonetheless, if you really value the format you should still be keeping track of what players are doing and how good they are.

Are you sure you've got that wright?

 

[Richard]

Yeah, hopefully. Obviously, stats-wise they look really good... but it's weird that not really many significant performances stand out in my memory.

Yeah, due more than anything else to the fact England have barely played any significant matches in his time. He's just quietly done his job, but the rest haven't been anywhere near good enough to help him, and he's never - yet - produced the one-man show act that occasionally can win a ODI by an all-rounder in himself.

He did come close-ish in 2002/03 against India though, I'll say it again.

 

[Richard]

Are you sure you've got that wright?

No more or less than CW's most famous thread-digger did.

 

[four_or_six]

Yeah, due more than anything else to the fact England have barely played any significant matches in his time. He's just quietly done his job, but the rest haven't been anywhere near good enough to help him, and he's never - yet - produced the one-man show act that occasionally can win a ODI by an all-rounder in himself.

He did come close-ish in 2002/03 against India though, I'll say it again.

Of course, the rest of the team not bowling well can also mean that teams are able to not worry about Flintoff's 10 overs which may keep his ER down somewhat.

 

[Richard]

Although that may be the case sometimes (NZ 2007 for instance), it emphatically isn't on others (India 2002/03 - Flintoff knocked-over the batsmen who were laying waste to the rest of the attack then for a time stalled the innings completely, and anyone who thought of trying to go after him was forced to rapidly revise).

 

[marc71178]

Moving on, I was pondering how England might look in the post-Freddy era. I don't see any other bowler doing a viable job at 7 for us, so we'll need a batsman at 6 followed by the keeper and 4 bowlers. That in turn makes it hard for Broad's inclusion to be justified unless we're playing 4 quicks and no spinner.

It's a tricky one - will need some of the batsmen to turn their over more often, and to a better standard than they currently do.

 

[wpdavid]

It's a tricky one - will need some of the batsmen to turn their over more often, and to a better standard than they currently do.

Yup. And it's not as if we're short of contenders in a middle order that is likely to include 3 or 4 of Bopara, KP, Collingwood, Bell & Patel. I've long argued that we don't get enough overs out of those guys. I don't think Bell's bowled since the Pakistan tour in 2005, and Bopara's barely bowled at all. They should be able to do a reasonable containing job and bowl to a field once we're down to four specialist bowlers.

 

[marc71178]

So long as we don't then end up picking batsmen based on their bowling ability!

The concern I have though is that I can't see many candidates for any of the batting spots in county cricket outside of Bell (who to be fair to him is doing exactly what was asked of him when dropped) and Patel (fatness permitting)

 

[Uppercut]

Patel's the obvious option, and because he's a batting all-rounder would suit the balance of the side even better than Freddie did. Just need him to not be fat.

 

[wpdavid]

So long as we don't then end up picking batsmen based on their bowling ability!

The concern I have though is that I can't see many candidates for any of the batting spots in county cricket outside of Bell (who to be fair to him is doing exactly what was asked of him when dropped) and Patel (fatness permitting)

I suppose Trott might be another contender - and doesn't he turn his arm as well?

 

[wpdavid]

Patel's the obvious option, and because he's a batting all-rounder would suit the balance of the side even better than Freddie did. Just need him to not be fat.

He also needs to score some runs. iirc he's not set the CC ablaze this summer.

But yes, especially for the SA tour when full-time 4 quicks might be the best option.

 

[TT Boy]

Seems like Freddie's retirement has caused South Africa's most successful coach to quit, Richard Pybus. The Titans coach was peeved that his franchise wanted Fred (who approached them last week...) as their overseas player for next season's Pro20 but Pybus had already signed the Titans 3 (max allowed) overseas player for next year, Jacques Rudolph, Faf du Plessis and Tyron Henderson.

 

[morgieb]

Great career which was sadly plagued by injury. I doubt anyone would forget 2005. Was truly a great player when not injured.

At least we'll still see him to some extent I guess...

 

[aussie]

He also needs to score some runs. iirc he's not set the CC ablaze this summer.

But yes, especially for the SA tour when full-time 4 quicks might be the best option.

Patel aint test quality under any circumstances. In the likelihood ENG do play 4 seamers in SA this winter, the potential batsmen to be considered are Key, Denly & Bell. Unfortunately not very inspiring.

 

[Richard]

I can't really see how Patel can be said to be conclusively not worth a try while Bell is; Bell has failed countless times in Tests, Patel has yet to play any. Now of course, so far this season Bell has scored outstandingly and Patel has barely got a run, so obviously right now Bell should be ahead.

However, with all things being equal between the two, Bell has the demerit of being a previous failure; Patel does not.

As for Denly and Key, neither are comparable to Bell and Patel; they're openers. And Denly is still yet to produce with anywhere near the required regularity to suggest he's Test material. Having had my first real look at him technically in a real game of cricket (ie, four-dayer) in the Lions-Australia match, I can be relatively confident there is no major technical glitch anywhere.

 

[superkingdave]

Seems like Freddie's retirement has caused South Africa's most successful coach to quit, Richard Pybus. The Titans coach was peeved that his franchise wanted Fred (who approached them last week...) as their overseas player for next season's Pro20 but Pybus had already signed the Titans 3 (max allowed) overseas player for next year, Jacques Rudolph, Faf du Plessis and Tyron Henderson.

Is there not a possibility these players will lose their Kolpak contracts and revert to being South African again?

 

[GIMH]

So what happens to Freddie's central contract? Generally one-day only players just get an incremental deal, but you've never really had the key ODI player not being part of the Test team.