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**Official** India In West Indies

Arjun

Cricketer Of The Year
Having seen the way the young Indians played the short ball in the T20 WC, the shot Gambhir played in the first ODI was a real worry

Fast bowlers around the world will be lining up to bowl to these guys on pitches that bounce more than hip height
silentstriker said:
It's against bowlers who can actually bowl that we'll miss Dravid and Tendulkar when they go. I don't care about these games, but I worry for the Test future if these guys are lining up to be the replacements.
There is a major difference. The current Indian ODI/T20 team is full of ODI/T20 specialists, picked specially for the formats. Many of them haven't even played a Test match.

That may be a factor. Also that many of these batsmen, apart from not facing serious pace in Indian domestic cricket, are also well under six feet in height, and find the rising deliveries uncomfortable.
 
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ret

International Debutant
I would go with the line up like the one below for the last two games .... There is no harm in resting some guys and giving opportunity to some of the others

Karthik
Vijay
Badri
Yuvi
Dhoni
YP
Nayar
Praveen
RP
Nehra
Ojha
 

silentstriker

The Wheel is Forever
That may be a factor. Also that many of these batsmen, apart from not facing serious pace in Indian domestic cricket, are also well under six feet in height, and find the rising deliveries uncomfortable.
Being short is usually an advantage for a batsman. Guys like Sobers are the exception, most great batsmen have been average/below average height.
 

Faisal1985

International Vice-Captain
Whats up with misreading the pitch???? These batsmen are International level players they must be able to play short stuff and swinging deliveries. Whats up with all these excuses!

I liked Dhoni as a batsman but his captaincy is becoming a question mark. I think Yuvi must step up and lead the young batting line-up. He is probably the only reliable batsman right now in the Indian squad. Honestly i have no clue where BCCI is picking these players Jadeja does not have the muscele for International Cricket.

Parveen over Munaf Patel is a joke!!!! Munaf is a much better bowler he should have been brought to WI. And finally Ashish Nehra is no good why is he playing over Ishant????

Honestly looks like India is trying their best to self destruct. But then again, i am sure their is quite a bit of politics in BCCI as well.
 

Arjun

Cricketer Of The Year
I would go with the line up like the one below for the last two games .... There is no harm in resting some guys and giving opportunity to some of the others

Karthik
Vijay
Badri
Yuvi
Dhoni
YP
Nayar
Praveen
RP
Nehra
Ojha
There is, however, the objective of winning the series, and the way things are going, the series is being taken seriously. We don't expect them to do too many different things out there. Fair, Gambhir is overworked, but when Karthik is a reserve batsman, he (and the team) need those extra games. Alternatively, they can play Rohit Sharma in place of Karthik and bat him as low as six or seven, isolated from the new ball rising high over his shoulders, with one of Yuvraj/Dhoni opening.
 
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Arjun

Cricketer Of The Year
Being short is usually an advantage for a batsman. Guys like Sobers are the exception, most great batsmen have been average/below average height.
That used to be in the past. Today's best batsmen (maybe not as great as those of the past) are all very tall. Most Aussies are over six feet, except Ponting, Katich (?) and Clarke. The whole England top order is tall. Sri Lanka, Pakistan and West Indies have some short players, but we don't see them batting at that stage, while Chanders can score against anything.
 

silentstriker

The Wheel is Forever
That used to be in the past. Today's best batsmen (maybe not as great as those of the past) are all very tall. Most Aussies are over six feet, except Ponting, Katich (?) and Clarke. The whole England top order is tall. Sri Lanka, Pakistan and West Indies have some short players, but we don't see them batting at that stage, while Chanders can score against anything.
It's not a matter of fashion. Shorter height offers physiological advantages than a taller height for a batsman. The three best batsmen of the last twenty years are all short, for example.

Plus, I wouldn't exactly look to the English top order to prove a point about great batting :p.
 

G.I.Joe

International Coach
It's not a matter of fashion. Shorter height offers physiological advantages than a taller height for a batsman. The three best batsmen of the last twenty years are all short, for example.
Nah, its all about an optimum height rather than just being short. Those 3 are exceptions rather than the rule, IMO. It would be like claiming being short offers greater advantages to bowlers because the 3 greatest of the past 20 years, Marshall, Murali and Agarkar, were all short by conventional bowlers' standards. I reckon around 5'8" would turn out most dense if someone took time out to plot a scatter diagram of heights of all batsmen averaging above 50 in the modern game.
 

silentstriker

The Wheel is Forever
Nah, its all about an optimum height rather than just being short. Those 3 are exceptions rather than the rule, IMO. It would be like claiming being short offers greater advantages to bowlers because the 3 greatest of the past 20 years, Marshall, Murali and Agarkar, were all short by conventional bowlers' standards. I reckon around 5'8" would turn out most dense if someone took time out to plot a scatter diagram of heights of all batsmen averaging above 50 in the modern game.
Hmm, that would be an interesting study, I'd be interested in knowing the results. Murali is not a fast bowler, so while it certainly helps spinners, it doesn't as much as a fast bowler. You can't point to exceptions, because no one is claiming that its impossible to be a great batsman or a bowler unless you are short or tall respectively (Sobers and Marshall being the exception).

Let's look at the top ten fast bowlers of the last 30 years (in no particular order):
  1. McGrath
  2. Marshall
  3. Ambrose
  4. Holding
  5. Garner
  6. Lillee
  7. Imran
  8. Hadlee
  9. Akram
  10. Donald

I wonder what the average height is there, vs. the top ten batsmen of the last 30 years (in no particular order):

  1. Tendulkar
  2. Lara
  3. Chappell
  4. Gavaskar
  5. Ponting
  6. Miandad
  7. Richards
  8. Waugh
  9. Dravid
  10. Border

I bet if you compared the average height, there would be a significant difference of at least 3-4+ inches. ESPN did a great show on this, I watched it on youtube a while back, showing physiologically why it helps to have shorter levers in cricket for a batsman.
 
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Arjun

Cricketer Of The Year
It's not a matter of fashion. Shorter height offers physiological advantages than a taller height for a batsman. The three best batsmen of the last twenty years are all short, for example.

Plus, I wouldn't exactly look to the English top order to prove a point about great batting :p.
Short batsmen have a few advantages, tall batsmen, some others. Like some great players of the past say, the tall ones have the power while the short ones have the footwork. As for the England top order, I don't say they're great, but at least practical, and don't seem to have trouble facing the short deliveries. More like, what is a bouncer or a snorter to Rohit Sharma may be at a good height for Collingwood or Pietersen to negotiate.
 

silentstriker

The Wheel is Forever
Short batsmen have a few advantages, tall batsmen, some others. Like some great players of the past say, the tall ones have the power while the short ones have the footwork. As for the England top order, I don't say they're great, but at least practical, and don't seem to have trouble facing the short deliveries. More like, what is a bouncer or a snorter to Rohit Sharma may be at a good height for Collingwood or Pietersen to negotiate.
That's a very iffy proposition. Rohit Sharma is short. Rohit Sharma has trouble with bouncers. Therefore being short means you have more trouble with bouncers. I don't buy it at all. Ponting is about as good with the short ball as anyone around in the last decade, and he is short. It's not the height, it's not being accustomed to facing a barrage like that in India against bowlers of high enough quality.
 

Sanz

Hall of Fame Member
Short batsmen have a few advantages, tall batsmen, some others. Like some great players of the past say, the tall ones have the power while the short ones have the footwork. As for the England top order, I don't say they're great, but at least practical, and don't seem to have trouble facing the short deliveries. More like, what is a bouncer or a snorter to Rohit Sharma may be at a good height for Collingwood or Pietersen to negotiate.
Arjun, you are so funny. 8-)8-)
 

TT Boy

Hall of Fame Member
Short batsmen have a few advantages, tall batsmen, some others. Like some great players of the past say, the tall ones have the power while the short ones have the footwork. As for the England top order, I don't say they're great, but at least practical, and don't seem to have trouble facing the short deliveries. More like, what is a bouncer or a snorter to Rohit Sharma may be at a good height for Collingwood or Pietersen to negotiate.
Colly? :huh:

His only 5 ft 11 (max).

England's top order is hardly full of giants. Ravi, Strauss, Prior and Bell are all under 5 ft 11.
 
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Arjun

Cricketer Of The Year
Colly? :huh:

His only 5 ft 11 (max).

England's top order is hardly full of giants. Ravi, Strauss, Prior and Bell are all under 5 ft 11.
Compared to him, some Indian players are dwarfs. Raina, Gambhir, Karthik, less so Sehwag and Rohit Sharma are quite small. It doesn't end there with the short ball weakness. Players from outside India and Sri Lanka may play the short ball better because they're used to it a lot more in their domestic games or A-tour experience. While the taller one doesn't play it better, the shorter one will struggle a lot more when both start from more or less the same level.

However, we're going on too long about the short ball weakness here, often comparing the youngsters with the (former) Fab Four of the Test team. All of them are Test regulars, so they're accustomed to tougher bowling. None of the batsmen struggling against the short ball are Test certainties- many of them haven't even had a Test cap. They're used to bowling suited for ODIs, which doesn't feature much of this. You'll have to work with what you have and find a way around these obstacles, rather than just keep wishing. That said, they need to take more runs in singles, as they're better suited for that, than go for the big shots, which should be left to Yuvraj, Dhoni and Yusuf, on form.
 

TT Boy

Hall of Fame Member
Compared to him, some Indian players are dwarfs. Raina, Gambhir, Karthik, less so Sehwag and Rohit Sharma are quite small. It doesn't end there with the short ball weakness. Players from outside India and Sri Lanka may play the short ball better because they're used to it a lot more in their domestic games or A-tour experience. While the taller one doesn't play it better, the shorter one will struggle a lot more when both start from more or less the same level.

However, we're going on too long about the short ball weakness here, often comparing the youngsters with the (former) Fab Four of the Test team. All of them are Test regulars, so they're accustomed to tougher bowling. None of the batsmen struggling against the short ball are Test certainties- many of them haven't even had a Test cap. They're used to bowling suited for ODIs, which doesn't feature much of this. You'll have to work with what you have and find a way around these obstacles, rather than just keep wishing. That said, they need to take more runs in singles, as they're better suited for that, than go for the big shots, which should be left to Yuvraj, Dhoni and Yusuf, on form.
Gambhir?
 

Arjun

Cricketer Of The Year
Much as there's a perennial threat from Chopra, Vijay and miscast wicketkeepers, he'd be an exception to that line. His struggles are primarily due to lack of (or wrong) footwork, which has resulted in these two early dismissals.

Even as I type, the match has stayed interrupted due to rain. Again. This may end up 25 overs a side.
 

Faisal1985

International Vice-Captain
Good start from the Indians............ this was the key ......now they should be fine chasing this target....
 

ret

International Debutant
May be Gambhir should hit out and get his touch back .... But he is rotating the strike so that's good
 

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