2009 Sides vs 2005 Sides

[aussie]

I'd be happy with this. Prior isn't a great keeper by any stretch of the imagination (he's comfortably the 3rd best keeper at Sussex) but he has already shown that he's up to the job as a batsman, and when not keeping he's a quite outstanding fielder.

Word, in an XI something like:

Strauss
Cook
Bopara
KP
Colly
Prior
Flintoff
Foster
Swann
Sidebottom
Anderson

But the obvious prob with this - is Flintoff in a 4-man attack.

 

[GIMH]

Broad doesn't deserve to be dropped, but it's a good side

 

[Richard]

Word, in an XI something like:

Strauss
Cook
Bopara
KP
Colly
Prior
Flintoff
Foster
Swann
Sidebottom
Anderson

But the obvious prob with this - is Flintoff in a 4-man attack.

I assure everyone, being part of a five-man attack will not stop Flintoff from bearing a considerable workload. He remains the best bowler in the country and it's instinctive captaincy to give your best bowler the most overs. It'd be a dereliction of duty not to, indeed.

Sidebottom and Flintoff in the same attack - four-man or five-man - is always a recipe for disaster but it's really a case of pick your best men and see if they can remain fit or settle for inferior options for the sake of what "might" go wrong.

If Sidebottom and Flintoff are fully fit, I'd have both, and I've never, ever, ever, ever, ever been much of a fan of the five-man attack - it just unbalances a side.

Also, let's be clear about this - Prior is going to keep wicket assuming he is fit to play the opening Test. And he might well play the whole series.

 

[GIMH]

Sidebottom and Flintoff in the same attack - four-man or five-man - is always a recipe for disaster but it's really a case of pick your best men and see if they can remain fit or settle for inferior options for the sake of what "might" go wrong.

Yes, exactly

 

[zaremba]

I can see the point Richard's making here. But the reality is, what "might" go wrong might go wrong and there's nothing wrong with planning to avoid that contingency. If you pick Flintoff and Frontbottom in a 4 man attack, there is a foreseeable risk that one or the other will break down, leaving you absolutely screwed against a strong Crim batting line-up.

 

[Richard]

But if it's the choice between that and ignoring Frontbottom in favour of Amjad Khan, or picking Liam Plunkett ahead of an extra batsman, I'd always take the option of the risking injury.

I'd prefer give myself a chance and see it go a-begging than not give myself a chance ITFP.

 

[inbox24]

In all honesty this 2009 English bowling lineup can definitely match, if not better the 2005 one, you have more variety as well, if you pick the right guys.

Flintoff
Swann
Broad
Anderson
Sidebottom

From there you've a got both a left and right arm swingers at pace, a stilfling and wicket taking spinner and a miser and striker. The only weak link is Broad who at this stage is just a medium pace trundler with no radar. In dark overcast conditions these guys could certainly win back the Ashes, especially given the shocking form of our bats. They're even better than our bowlers:

Johnson
Lee
Clark
Siddle

With half the bowlers coming back from injury and non being able to consistently swing the ball and the other half so raw.

 

[Richard]

In all honesty this 2009 English bowling lineup can definitely match, if not better the 2005 one, you have more variety as well, if you pick the right guys.

... and if those right guys all hit the top of their game at the right time, and attain and keep fitness, and if several other pieces of the puzzle fall into place as they did last time.

That's the thing. In 2005, not merely was the quality there (initially from Flintoff and Giles at Edgbaston, then Flintoff and Jones at Old Trafford, then Jones and Hoggard at Trent Bridge, then Flintoff and Hoggard at The Oval) but something always went right, somewhere.

Such a thing is pretty rare. The only other occasion such a thing has happened in my time watching cricket was 2000, when an even better England attack had even more favourable conditions (as well as a much better catching unit) and thus wreaked utter havoc.

I think if we're hoping for Sidebottom-Anderson-Flintoff-Swann to get everything right and have the cookie crumble their way this summer - which, if it does happen, could indeed produce some really superb bowling - then we're hoping for far too much TBH.

 

[inbox24]

I think it is all starting to fall into place though. England have come off good wins and are still in the T20WC which is a great momentum building exercise especially given our flop.

All the batsmen are in form with Bopara having a Hussey-esque run of form which settles the number three problem and also with Prior being the essentially a number 6 batsman where you previously had a keeper of tail end batting ability. Now that a spinner has come into the fold the weaknesses have pretty much all been patched up.

You've also got Buchanan now, it should be unstoppable.

 

[Richard]

I think it is all starting to fall into place though. England have come off good wins and are still in the T20WC which is a great momentum building exercise especially given our flop.

All the batsmen are in form with Bopara having a Hussey-esque run of form which settles the number three problem and also with Prior being the essentially a number 6 batsman where you previously had a keeper of tail end batting ability. Now that a spinner has come into the fold the weaknesses have pretty much all been patched up.

You've also got Buchanan now, it should be unstoppable.

I think that's frankly extremely optimistic. There are currently, I think, three players who can feel confident of their place in the England side - Strauss, Pietersen and Collingwood. Those three aside, anyone could go during The Ashes, for my money. Either due to lack of fitness or lack of performance.

Bopara has scored three chancy centuries - that proves very little.
Cook's technique retains its holes.
To expect Flintoff to be fit all series would be a remarkable leap of faith.
Ditto Sidebottom
Anderson for all his recent promise has yet to produce regular goods.
Broad is still bowling in a manner that has precious little hope of success against good batsmen... but is one of the least un-secure in the side currently.
Prior's wicketkeeping remains inept and very likely to have one shambolic game sometime mid-series. His batting remains not-completely-convincing to me, against quality seam.
Swann remains a decent fingerspinner and no more than that.

And there's no-one else who's hinted at the remotest of high Test calibre.

 

[GIMH]

Fair points all-round pretty much Rich. Though it really is nothing short of a disgrace that Anderson isn't an absolute cert and it was a shambles that he got dropped earlier in the year against the Windies. He has taken 66 wickets at under 29 since the start of 2008 - I'd say that's pretty consistent, personally

 

[Richard]

I'd say Anderson is a pretty strong bet to be England's best bowler but he might well be England's best in the manner that Vanburn Holder was West Indies' best between 1969 and 1973 (that is, with the modern Flintoff injured as there was no-one in the Carib injured in Holder's day). He should be a dead-cert for the lot, beyond doubt, but it's quite conceivable that he won't be.

In any case, Anderson over the last year since, finally, having a long run in the side, has been occasionally breathtaking (opening spell of the Second Test in New Zealand; first-innings of the Third Test at home to New Zealand; whole Second Test against West Indies); not irregularly bowled well without luck (especial ly on some occasions in West Indies and at home to South Africa); and sometimes been pretty average (though these have often been forgotten due to how unfortunate he's sometimes been when he's bowled well).

 

[Jakester1288]

As has been mentioned, the 2005 sides were miles better than the 2009 sides. Particularly in the bowling attacks.

IMO

Johnson
Siddle
Clark
Lee/Hauritz/McDonald

Doesn't rate anywhere near

McGrath
Lee
Gillespie
Warne

Obviously Gillespie was in poor form, but a very good test bowler none the less, and Lee wasn't setting the world on fire, but in McGrath and Warne you had the two best test bowlers.

Then, the openers.

Hughes
Katich

Hayden
Langer

Hayden and Langer win hands down.

The middle order
Ponting
Martyn
Clarke
Katich
Gilchrist

Ponting
Hussey
Clarke
North
Haddin

I'd say 2005 wins again, but that would be close.

Englands bowling attack was much better in 2005 compared to 2009, IMO.

Harmison
Hoggard
Jones
Flintoff
Giles

Harmison, Hoggard, Jones and Flintoff were in brilliant form, unstoppable. Giles was the tweaker, and he wasn't bad, playing a role similar to Paul Harris.

Anderson
Broad
Flintoff
Swann
Onions/Panesar/Rashid/Sidebottom/whoever else

Doesn't even compare.

Overall, the 2005 teams were better than the likely 2009 teams, in form, player performance, and on paper (even though that's irrelivant), and by some margin.

 

[pup11]

Clearly both teams had much better teams in 2005 as compared to now, Australia had a lot of big names in the team then, who had virtually conquered everything, and the English side was full of ambitious players led by a very good captain in Vaughan, who wanted to emulate Australia's feat of global domination and dethrone Australia as the no.1 team in the world.

This time around things are quite different, both sides are going through a rebuilding process, and there isn't much to choose between the two sides either, though England do have an edge over the Aussies in terms of the spin bowling, but still man-to-man, both teams are pretty well matched, and hence one closely contested series seems to be on the cards this time around too.

 

[inbox24]

Where have ye been

 

[Richard]

Sameer and sledger return in the same day, ITSTL.

 

[pup11]

Where have ye been

Was just busy with a few things, but with the Ashes nearing, I just had to make some time for CW..

Sameer and sledger return in the same day, ITSTL.

Yeah... I know two CW stalwarts returning on the same day, now surely that doesn't happen very often...

 

[Richard]

We can play this game all night. Jones was the plumbest thing ever hit on the toe, very early in his partnership with Flintoff which would have left Australia chasing a fair bit less from memory. Certainly a more decisive decision than Kaspa's.

Looking back on this again, this is not true at all. Jones' plumb lbw which was turned-down came just 2 runs before Flintoff was out. The impact of it was virtually non-existent. Kasprowicz's plumb lbw that was turned-down, however, so nearly cost England the Test.