Group C - Australia, Sri Lanka, West Indies

[abhinav_super]

Ohright, cruxe.

But India beat Oz last summer..remember?

CB series.

 

[aussie]

Well as far as I remember Ponting played in the ODI series.

I never said Punter did play vs SA. He missed ODIs vs NZ & PAK because he needed to rest.

Tait will not be playing any time soon and thinking of him as a great player is just deluding yourself.

Why not he is currently part of the Australia A vs Pak a series. Its a very high probability he will be part of the ODI squad in ENG and beyond. I never said he was great player either - just that losing him thorugh injury was a problem.

Watson playing is the bigger surprise than him being injured.

Yea, but that does not change the FACT, that AUS not having Watson in the side afeects the balance of the ODI side these days.

This was just a thrashing that SA gave Australia.

The team was under-strenght side, my god...

Hopes is a no hoper. At least Pathan in swinging conditions is good.

Hopes is a very solid utility ODI player. His batting is clearly is strong suite & his bowlig on slower pitches would always be handy.

Pathan has transformed from the Akram of Indian cricket, to a bloke who bowls a bit & could slog a few runs.

If you say so. Haven't seen anything special from D. Hussey or Hodge while seen plenty from Raina already.

Neither Hodge & D Hussey have not transformed their excellent ODI performances on the international stage consistently. But they are certainly better players than Raina.

The only thing major Raina has done is IPL 09, his ODI career his fielding has been more exciting that his batting to date.

Again if you say so. We have guys like Virat Kohli who has already played for India. Others would be Badri, Manish Pandey, Uthappa. Ravindra Jadeja is going to be a star in ODI's.

My bad i forgot about Kohli & Jadeja especially. Its pretty close between Bailey/Pomersbach and these two Indians.

Uthappa is straight wildness, id be very surprised if he plays for IND in ODIs or T20s again.

Badri strong suite seems to be test cricket. Seeing him in the IPL he looks a bit out of his depth in that format.

Pandey no doubt looked exciting, but so did Warner intially. So too early to judge him i'd say.

Nannes plays for Netherlands. Lee may be on his last legs. Bracken has run out of steam. Tait will not paly for Aussies any time soon. So there goes your argument.

Nannes could still get picked by Australia.

Lee having two bad T20 bad/average does not prove anything.

There is no evidence that Bracken is on his last legs in ODIs, if you are judging him on the recent two T20 performances that would not be wise.

Tait clearly does have a future in the AUS ODI side.

So my argument still stands firm..bullettttt

 

[Cruxdude]

I never said Punter did play vs SA. He missed ODIs vs NZ & PAK because he needed to rest.

But you said the 7-3 result isn't fair because he didn't play. OK leave it.

Why not he is currently part of the Australia A vs Pak a series. Its a very high probability he will be part of the ODI squad in ENG and beyond. I never said he was great player either - just that losing him thorugh injury was a problem.

Let us see.

Neither Hodge & D Hussey have not transformed their excellent ODI performances on the international stage consistently. But they are certainly better players than Raina.

The only thing major Raina has done is IPL 09, his ODI career his fielding has been more exciting that his batting to date.

You haven't seen much of Raina I suppose and btw he is 22 years old while Hodge and Hussey are around 34.

Pandey no doubt looked exciting, but so did Warner intially. So too early to judge him i'd say.

Warner was generally slogging in that T20 match. Even now I feel against a decent spinner he would struggle. Pandey also slogged fro his century but the innings in the semi finals against Chennai was too good. The shots were brilliant. I have high hopes on him.

Nannes could still get picked by Australia.

Isn't there a 5 year gap between representing 2 countries?

Lee having two bad T20 bad/average does not prove anything.

Yeah he is a gun player and could still have some fuel left.

There is no evidence that Bracken is on his last legs in ODIs, if you are judging him on the recent two T20 performances that would not be wise.

Bracken I feel hasn't been doing that well in ODI's also for some time. I may be wrong there.

Tait clearly does have a future in the AUS ODI side.

Tait has got no contract. I dont know how it is clear he has a future.

So my argument still stands firm..bullettttt

Hmmm

 

[Shri]

I can only see Ojha playing in a twin-spin attack on turning tracks.

Then there is Amit Mishra, Monish Parmar, Ravichandra Ashwin etc.

 

[aussie]

No,

Tendulkar >>> Any ODI player currently playinh
Sehwag >> Warner/Hughes
Dhoni >>> Haddin
Yuvraj >> Any middle order Aussie ODI batsman
Gambhir = Ponting (current form)
Khan < Johnson
Sharma > Siddle
Ojha > Bracken
Harby >>> Any Aussie spinner

One on one, clearly India is superior to Australia.

Id say Johnson and Zaheer are even & Sharma may have the ODI numbers over Siddle since he hasn't played an ODI of course. But i think that can change rapidly once Siddle starts playing.

Haa..Why are you comparing Ojha to Bracken?

But all of this is irrelevant to my point though. When i listed all the series defeats during the glory ODI days of the 99 WC to WI 08. I was stating the fact that IND CB series win in 08 did not make them ATT.

Currently India have the stronger batting but AUS have the superior bowling in ODI cricket, especially the pace attack which would give them an advantage at home. But in Ind, the spin of Harbhajan would rattle AUS since, they are playing spin in post IND 2001 way again. Thats why as ODI sides IND, AUS are even.

Well, attributing every single loss to poor selection proves that there is a clear disconnect between selectors perception of the best talent in the country. Secondly it is the poorest and weakest excuse to be resorted as there is nothing supporting the poor on field performances.

The poor on-field performaces was due to the fact that players where out injured/resting & the new players didn't perform as i just said. Because they came into an unsual pressure situation in ODI side.

Blokes like Ferguson, Haurtiz may have stepped up, but the ruthless Aussie swagger wasn't there - no team can lose so much players ATT & expect to play well. Thats not an excuse, that facts.


The TVS Cup 2003, WI 08, VB series 03, 07, in NZ 07 are past examples during the 99 WC - wi 08 period - where AUS rested players or injury woes caused fringe players to get called up & the side would play excellent because of the enviroment.

Pathan is better than Hopes in all 3 forms of the game.

Why involve test cricket. We are talking about ODI & to a level T20s. Hopes is not a test player & should (i say should because of the crazyness of the selectors lately) NEVER play test cricket.

As i just told the previous poster:

Hopes is a very solid utility ODI player. His batting is clearly is strong suite & his bowlig on slower pitches would always be handy.

Pathan has transformed from the Akram of Indian cricket, to a bloke who bowls a bit & could slog a few runs.

Hopes is the better ODI player, while depending on the roles given in T20s is close between them in that format.

On current form, he indeed is better than Ferguson and Hodge. Hussey is pretty dire in ODIs so no comparison there.

How can he better than Ferguson when he has done nothing with the bat in ODIs againts major ODI sides.

No doubt Hodge & Hussey have not transformed their domestic performances on the ODI stage consistently, but Raina has other than this years IPL hasn't done anything significant. Hodge & Hussey are better ODI batsmen than him

Bailey and Pomersbach are are comparable to perhaps Abhishek Nayar and Ravindra Jadeja. I'd rather back the Indians to come on the top.

No way is Nayar on par with them. As the other poster just reminded me about the others like Kohli, Badri, Panday, Uthappa.

Only Kohil & Jadeja is quality depth in ODIs behind the first XI. Panday although looks special the jury is still out.

So AUS has the better ODI batting depth.

RP has better performances than Nannes. Tait is probably history.

Nannes is slightly better than RP. More dangerous with the new ball, quicker, while they are equals at bowling @ the death.

I dont get why you guys are saying Tait is history

Not really.

I think i have bredrin...

India can fire at the same power even after losing Yuvraj and Khan because the guys replacing them are more or less adept. So that's a weak example.

That would be over-rating India depth of lack of it...

You telling me if Dhoni, Yuvraj, Tendy, Harbhajan, Khan had opted out of the NZ tour. They would have won please...

What then explains the continued selection of Micheal Clarke despite being dire in ODIs for almost 2 years after WC? (Avg < 30, SR - 60)

Haha, i dont even have to check stats guru to justify this, this is a baseless stats argument. Their is absolutely nothing wrong with Clarke's ODI batting since the 07 WC.

 

[Uppercut]

In the league of Harbhajan and Ojha really?

Personally I'd take both of Botha and van der Merve over Ojha every time. Fantastically canny bowlers. Harbs is miles ahead of both, obviously.

 

[inbox24]

Whilst there might not be that big a gulf between the top 3 OD teams, AUS, SA and IND, (although still a sizeable one with India having awesome balance and reserves and South Africa having good balance) there is a huge gulf in mentality.

Without openers who will score at 7-8 in the first 15 overs, there is no way Australia will make 300 even 10% of the time. The middle order plays the limited overs like 4 runs an over is good enough whilst other teams are evolving an pushing at minimum 6 an over. Added to that we probably lose a few wickets due to bad shots and inability to pace innings and then at the death we can't accelerate. This new Australian outfit smacks of 'ordinary is good enough' when it's not, especially against the top teams, but even against previously considered poor OD teams like NZ, and yes even Bangladesh. Arse players like Marsh typify this utter craziness as they are too selfish to score at a rate which will benefit the team but rather want to protect their wickets and remain unbeaten on 60 at the end off 120 balls whilst the team has made 240 on a flat deck.

 

[Burgey]

This new Australian side also smacks of having 4-5 blokes all trying to establish themselves at the one time, which imo is contributing massively to their current conservative approach to the game.

 

[Cruxdude]

How can he better than Ferguson when he has done nothing with the bat in ODIs againts major ODI sides.

No doubt Hodge & Hussey have not transformed their domestic performances on the ODI stage consistently, but Raina has other than this years IPL hasn't done anything significant. Hodge & Hussey are better ODI batsmen than him

Hussey averages 24 in ODI's and he is old. How can he be better than a promising youngster averaging more than him. Hodge averages 30 and is in the same boat as Hussey. Raina was good in NZ and he did decently well when he came in aged 19. He still hasn't played against Australia and SA in his second coming and from what we saw in the IPL we can say he won't be doing bad. No basis for comparing them with him.

I have not seen Bailey or Pomersbach so no idea about how good or bad they are.

 

[honestbharani]

At the same time, for all we've done wrong (and I have posted on it extensively), the groups really are quite unfair. I'm not one to usually complain and don't think we would have gotten too far regardless, but all SA have to do to qualify is beat Scotland and they're in. India have a joke of an easy group as well.

It was based on the last WC results though... It was decided even before they had a winner in the last WC, I think...


Anyways, had the Aussies won last time, they would have gotted the "joke of a group"...

 

[inbox24]

Don't get the Ferguson hate really, the guy averages 45+ at a strike rate of 80+ and plays a good role as a finisher. Fair enough his record at state level is not that flash but until he starts to fail at international level, there's no reason to pan him.

 

[Prince EWS]

Don't get the Ferguson hate really, the guy averages 45+ at a strike rate of 80+ and plays a good role as a finisher. Fair enough his record at state level is not that flash but until he starts to fail at international level, there's no reason to pan him.

This from the most ridiculously over-the-top criticiser of Shaun Marsh for that exact reason, of all time.

 

[duffer]

This new Australian side also smacks of having 4-5 blokes all trying to establish themselves at the one time, which imo is contributing massively to their current conservative approach to the game.

Tis a fair point. Apart from Haddin, I don't see anyone playing with the reckless abandon that we're used to seeing from the Aussie top orders past. Although they still talk the good talk they lack that ultra confident vibe that we're using to seeing from them.

 

[TT Boy]

Lee having two bad T20 bad/average does not prove anything.

There is no evidence that Bracken is on his last legs in ODIs, if you are judging him on the recent two T20 performances that would not be wise.

So my argument still stands firm..bullettttt

Bati man

 

[inbox24]

This from the most ridiculously over-the-top criticiser of Shaun Marsh for that exact reason, of all time.

The difference is one has performed and contributed to wins, whilst the other is overly selfish and contributed to losses.

 

[Athlai]

 

[Smith]

Personally I'd take both of Botha and van der Merve over Ojha every time. Fantastically canny bowlers. Harbs is miles ahead of both, obviously.

Yet it is Ojha who has the better numbers than all three, despite playing a chunk of his matches against SL, who are known to be killers of newbie spinners?

 

[Noble One]

The difference is one has performed and contributed to wins, whilst the other is overly selfish and contributed to losses.

Touch critical of Shaun Marsh who has done little wrong in his ODI career to date.

In the limited games Shaun Marsh has played. He has compiled 5 half-centuries, 4 of these have featured in Australian wins. When Shaun Marsh performs seems to result in Australia performing.

Do not understand how Shaun Marsh has played selfish cricket and been a contributor to the games Australia lost.

His first game he played where Australia lost against South Africa at the MCG. Marsh cracked 79 and batted superbly with Ricky Ponting. It was more the fault of the middle order/lower order for not kicking on towards a bigger score.

His second losing game against South Africa; Marsh made 43. Batted down the other end whilst Warner was on a rampage. Hard to fault Marsh's innings.

The next losing game against South Africa in Adelaide; Marsh hardly contributed. 13 off 9. Not really a selfish innings.

Loss against New Zealand. Marsh lasted 11 balls. Against New Zealand again 28 balls. Then in Pakistan where the entire top order failed he made 16 off 27.

Done little wrong to deserve the title of selfish cricketer who contributes to Australia losing. If he was continually making 60 runs off 110 deliveries on batting wickets, then he deserves that tag. But after 15 games, he has performed and won games for Australia.

 

[Smith]

Id say Johnson and Zaheer are even & Sharma may have the ODI numbers over Siddle since he hasn't played an ODI of course. But i think that can change rapidly once Siddle starts playing.

Akin to me saying Atul Sharma will be better than McGrath once he starts playing.

Haa..Why are you comparing Ojha to Bracken?

Both are left armers, albeit one is still wrongly listed as LMF

But all of this is irrelevant to my point though. When i listed all the series defeats during the glory ODI days of the 99 WC to WI 08. I was stating the fact that IND CB series win in 08 did not make them ATT.

Check out the ODI rankings and see whether they are still on top. They are not.

Currently India have the stronger batting but AUS have the superior bowling in ODI cricket, especially the pace attack which would give them an advantage at home. But in Ind, the spin of Harbhajan would rattle AUS since, they are playing spin in post IND 2001 way again. Thats why as ODI sides IND, AUS are even.

How do you say that despite agreeing to Zaheer = Johnson, Ishant > Bracken, Siddle, Ojha and Harby have no comparitive figures in Aus???

The poor on-field performaces was due to the fact that players where out injured/resting & the new players didn't perform as i just said. Because they came into an unsual pressure situation in ODI side.

Happens to all teams. Even when Ojha made his debut, it was against SL in their own backyard, he came good immediately.

Blokes like Ferguson, Haurtiz may have stepped up, but the ruthless Aussie swagger wasn't there - no team can lose so much players ATT & expect to play well. Thats not an excuse, that facts.

Yeah, it is a fact that the current Aussie team is a shade of the past Aussie teams.

The TVS Cup 2003, WI 08, VB series 03, 07, in NZ 07 are past examples during the 99 WC - wi 08 period - where AUS rested players or injury woes caused fringe players to get called up & the side would play excellent because of the enviroment.

When you are constantly excusing yourself with the same reason for a lengthy period of time, you know something is wrong with the team. It is not as if Aus lost just one series and people started berating them as an ODI team.

Why involve test cricket. We are talking about ODI & to a level T20s. Hopes is not a test player & should (i say should because of the crazyness of the selectors lately) NEVER play test cricket.

Who involved test cricket? I mentioned there is no way James Hopes is a better player than Pathan. In all formats, including ODIs.

As i just told the previous poster:

Hopes is a very solid utility ODI player. His batting is clearly is strong suite & his bowlig on slower pitches would always be handy.

Pathan has transformed from the Akram of Indian cricket, to a bloke who bowls a bit & could slog a few runs.

He is a handy player in the shield. But at the moment, when it comes to Internationals, he is found wanting, Hopes that is.

Hopes is the better ODI player, while depending on the roles given in T20s is close between them in that format.

You got no data to back it up shotta, and in T20s, Hopes is a big joke.

How can he better than Ferguson when he has done nothing with the bat in ODIs againts major ODI sides.

And Ferguson has played all of SA as a big side?

No doubt Hodge & Hussey have not transformed their domestic performances on the ODI stage consistently, but Raina has other than this years IPL hasn't done anything significant. Hodge & Hussey are better ODI batsmen than him

Check out his stats for a change mister. Raina's record despite his inexperience is far better than that of Hodge and Hussey.

No way is Nayar on par with them. As the other poster just reminded me about the others like Kohli, Badri, Panday, Uthappa.

Only Kohil & Jadeja is quality depth in ODIs behind the first XI. Panday although looks special the jury is still out.

So AUS has the better ODI batting depth.

Lol, the way you arrive at conclusions is hilarious. Nayar is as good as Pomersbach if not better. That is evident from their domestic records, Also Uthappa, Kohli, Badri, Vijay, Pande, Jadeja etc all outclass the bench strength of Aussies.

Nannes is slightly better than RP. More dangerous with the new ball, quicker, while they are equals at bowling @ the death.

He is firstly a Netherlands player. So it is an irrelevant argument. Secondly, Nannes has hardly played any International cricket to have an assessment. It is funny when you say he is better than RP, who has actually led India to test wins abroad, not to mention ODIs and T20s.

I dont get why you guys are saying Tait is history

Because he was denied a contract this year and has hardly impressed in the last few years?

That would be over-rating India depth of lack of it...

You telling me if Dhoni, Yuvraj, Tendy, Harbhajan, Khan had opted out of the NZ tour. They would have won please...

Nobody put a knife to the Aussie squad's neck and demanded to rest their players. The fact that the top 6 of India remains constant shows a. How fit they are b. How consistent they are.

And plus, Australia did not miss 5 players of their core in any series. Don't talk out of your arse.

Haha, i dont even have to check stats guru to justify this, this is a baseless stats argument. Their is absolutely nothing wrong with Clarke's ODI batting since the 07 WC.

Batting records | One-Day Internationals | Cricinfo Statsguru | Cricinfo.com

Averaging 36 at an abysmal SR of 70 since 2007 WC. His slow batting has ensured that the middle and lower order were put in huge pressure often more than not.

 

[jondavluc]

Batting records | One-Day Internationals | Cricinfo Statsguru | Cricinfo.com

Averaging 36 at an abysmal SR of 70 since 2007 WC. His slow batting has ensured that the middle and lower order were put in huge pressure often more than not.

Look through the scorecards.He has hardly been as bad as I have seen from Kallis or Dravid.His scoring rate has been effected by low scoring games where he had to knuckle down and getting out before his eye kicked in (aka things like 24 of 40 balls or 12 of 30 balls things that shouldn't effect the game).

HowSTAT! Player Progressive Batting (ODI)

HowSTAT! Player Progressive Batting (ODI)

2008 was a pretty bad year but he didn't put up many substantial totals and when he did we won.

Also funny enough the only times in the last year (09) we put up 300 is because of Haddin and Clarke.

HowSTAT! ODI Scorecard

HowSTAT! ODI Scorecard

This next match is the worst of the lot and it was still a close match ten or fifteening more runs and we would of won.

HowSTAT! ODI Scorecard