Group C - Australia, Sri Lanka, West Indies

[abhinav_super]

Mmmmm agreed...

Athlai couple of months ago we also beat Kiwis on their land itself..

 

[Smith]

Ooops I have edited my post It should make a little more sense.

Still not very clear. Are you suggesting Ojha is terrible?

 

[Athlai]

Mmmmm agreed...

Athlai couple of months ago we also beat Kiwis on their land itself..

Yeah we were outplayed, but the rain didn't help us much either.

 

[abhinav_super]

Heheheh yeah, but playing on those tracks (Bouncy one) it was proved that this young Indian team have lotta talent.

 

[jondavluc]

Still not very clear. Are you suggesting Ojha is terrible?

Hardly just having a chuckle at myself for completely forgetting Ojha.Maybe a faceplam picture would be more appropriate then a laughing emote.

 

[Athlai]

Heheheh yeah, but playing on those tracks (Bouncy one) it was proved that this young Indian team have lotta talent.

For sure, thats why I reckon they're the best in the world at the moment. Though the margin is small between them Aus, SA then NZ and SL.

 

[Smith]

Hardly just having a chuckle at myself for completely forgetting Ojha.Maybe a faceplam picture would be more appropriate then a laughing emote.

Ah cheers!

 

[aussie]

That excuse is available for all teams right? Not just the Aussies. Anyway as of now, SA is clearly No.1 in ODIs, followed by India and then Australia.

Australia losing Symonds, puts them on par with India ATM

At full stenght AUS, IND, SA would in ODIs would be:

AUS: (probably)

Marsh
Watson
Ponting
Clarke
Ferguson/D Hussey
M Hussey
Haddin
Hopes/Hauritz
Johnson
Lee
Bracken

IND:

Sehwag
Tendulkar
Gambhir
Yuvraj
Sharma
Dhoni
Y Pathan
Kumar
Harbhajan
Khan
Sharma

SA:

Smith
Gibbs
Kallis
AB
Dumminy
Boucher
A Morkel
VDM
Botha
Parnell
Steyn

Looking at that, one really cant split them. SA 7-3 ODI performances over AUS dont mean anything given that Australia were not a full-strenght at any point in time.

If they don't have the bench strength to replace a few injured guys, then they in my books are not simply no.1.

That wasn't really the problem. A bench strenght of D Hussey, Ferguson, Tait, Warner, Hilfenhaus, Hodge, Nannes, Bailey, Pomersbach (although all didn't didn't play). Is clearly better than anything IND & SA would could put forward beyond there first XIs.

Its just that unlike AUS ODI side from WC 99 to about WI 08. During that period of ODIS vs NZ/SA/PAK recently confidence was down & their was pressure on the new players to come in & perform immediately, which regardless of their ability was very tough.

Besides if you are talking about how Ponting, Johnson etc need rest, the entire Indian contingent has played double the cricket that these guys have in the last 2 months.

How is it double?. Its the same about, only difference is that IND big players just haven't asked for rest. Although they they may likely to so on the schedule tour to WI coming up.

 

[Smith]

Australia losing Symonds, puts them on par with India ATM

India beat Australia in the 2008 CB series and there was Symonds in the side.

Full strength Indian team

It is not full strength Indian team. Raina, who;s been such an improved player does not appear in your XI. So does not Ojha.

Looking at that, one really cant split them. SA 7-3 ODI performances over AUS dont mean anything given that Australia were not a full-strenght at any point in time.

Because they were missing Shaun Marsh?

That wasn't really the problem. A bench strenght of D Hussey, Ferguson, Tait, Warner, Hilfenhaus, Hodge, Nannes, Bailey, Pomersbach (although all didn't didn't play). Is clearly better than anything IND & SA would could put forward beyond there first XIs.

Lol. The second XI for India would comprise of :

Ojha
D Kartik (Wk)
I Pathan
RP Singh
Raina
M Patel

Those names are experienced and better than most of the names you suggested.

Its just that unlike AUS ODI side from WC 99 to about WI 08. During that period of ODIS vs NZ/SA/PAK recently confidence was down & their was pressure on the new players to come in & perform immediately, which regardless of their ability was very tough.

All these counts when trying to determine who is the number one.

How is it double?. Its the same about, only difference is that IND big players just haven't asked for rest. Although they they may likely to so on the schedule tour to WI coming up.

Indian players cannot ask for rest as the competition is so hard and they do not have the luxury of taking breaks at their will, barring perhaps Dhoni and Tendulkar.

 

[superkingdave]

Steyn is a good striker but almost always going to be expensive.
Parnell is world class.
Kallis past it
Morkel and co. are dire.
Botha is alright but India's are better.

They were the best when Pollock was still there now they are just a bit behind India. India's batting is too good and at home they would be heavy favorites while away it'd be 50/50

How on earth is Parnell considered world class?

 

[Athlai]

How on earth is Parnell considered world class?

Bowled well this one time.

Just reckon hes a better hope than most of the others in the attack.

 

[superkingdave]

Oh he certainly looks like an awesome prospect, see how he matures

 

[scorpiogal]

Translation: He's not world-class.....yet.

 

[aussie]

India beat Australia in the 2008 CB series and there was Symonds in the side.

NZ won VB series 02, PAK won the super Challenge series 02, SA won 3-2 in 06 & 2-1 in 00, NZ won 3-0 in 2007, Eng won CB series 2007, Aus went out of the 2002 CT & ICC Knockout 2000 early. In the period 99 WC to WI 08 as well.

India like all those teams played well & won, but it clearly did not make them a better team than AUS.

Right now with Symonds out, AUS & IND are even along with SA when at full-strenght.

It is not full strength Indian team. Raina, who;s been such an improved player does not appear in your XI. So does not Ojha.

Raina would be challenging Sharma for a place. The rest of that top-order is pretty settled. I can only see Ojha playing in a twin-spin attack on turning tracks.

Because they were missing Shaun Marsh? .

Haa, why is this even a debate?

Not just Marsh. No Lee, Symonds, Watson, Tait, Ponting, Johnson, Siddle all went missing due to injuries or needed breaks. While the situation wasn'nt helped also by some crazy selections i.e laughlin & Harris.

SA 3-2 win is 2006 was clearly far more legitmate.

Lol. The second XI for India would comprise of :

Ojha.

Definately better than any AUS spinner. Would lobe to have him.

D Kartik (Wk).

Yea, better than Ronchi as a back-up keeper

I Pathan.

Bits a pieces. Hopes is a better overall than him in ODIs. Pathan better in T20s.

Raina.

He aint better than Hodge, D Hussey. Him & Ferguson are pretty close, Raina the better T20 player though.

The likes of Bailey & Pomersbach are very good players. India after Raina dont have much better ODI batting depth than them, didn't see any evidence of that in the IPL.

M Patel
RP Singh.

Well Australia first choice ODI pace attack is Lee/Johnson/Brakcen right. Back-ups then would be Tait, Nannes, Siddle. Patel & RP aint better than none of them. They better than Hilfenhaus, Harris, Laughlin though.

Those names are experienced and better than most of the names you suggested.

Well i just dispelled this notion...

All these counts when trying to determine who is the number one.

How could it?. Australia losing all those players is eqivalent to IND & SA losing Steyn, Khan, Morkel, Yuvraj, Kallis etc for an extended period of time for similar reasons. IND & SA depth aint better than AUS either - so its not like they would have done better.

Indian players cannot ask for rest as the competition is so hard and they do not have the luxury of taking breaks at their will, barring perhaps Dhoni and Tendulkar.

Aus competition aint exactly easy either. The ODI series vs NZ & PAK could have been avoided, but losing Lee & Symonds, Watson etc to injuries & other reasons does make make SA beating them legitimate as i said.

Along with the fact that the new players came into an unsual pressure situation in ODI side.

TVS Cup 2003, WI 08, VB series 03, 07, in NZ 07 are past examples during the 99 WC - wi 08 period - where AUS rested players or injury woes caused fringe players to get called up & the side would play excellent because of the enviroment.

 

[andruid]

Brett Lee, the most underappreciated bowler who's taken 300+ Test Wickets ever IMO.

That's actually Makhaya Ntini IIRC

 

[abhinav_super]

For sure, thats why I reckon they're the best in the world at the moment. Though the margin is small between them Aus, SA then NZ and SL.

Yes, but one thing for in T20 Black caps are one of the best.

 

[Smith]

NZ won VB series 02, PAK won the super Challenge series 02, SA won 3-2 in 06 & 2-1 in 00, NZ won 3-0 in 2007, Eng won CB series 2007, Aus went out of the 2002 CT & ICC Knockout 2000 early. In the period 99 WC to WI 08 as well.

India like all those teams played well & won, but it clearly did not make them a better team than AUS.

Right now with Symonds out, AUS & IND are even along with SA when at full-strenght.

No,

Tendulkar >>> Any ODI player currently playinh
Sehwag >> Warner/Hughes
Dhoni >>> Haddin
Yuvraj >> Any middle order Aussie ODI batsman
Gambhir = Ponting (current form)
Khan < Johnson
Sharma > Siddle
Ojha > Bracken
Harby >>> Any Aussie spinner

One on one, clearly India is superior to Australia.

Haa, why is this even a debate?

Not just Marsh. No Lee, Symonds, Watson, Tait, Ponting, Johnson, Siddle all went missing due to injuries or needed breaks. While the situation wasn'nt helped also by some crazy selections i.e laughlin & Harris.

SA 3-2 win is 2006 was clearly far more legitmate.

Well, attributing every single loss to poor selection proves that there is a clear disconnect between selectors perception of the best talent in the country. Secondly it is the poorest and weakest excuse to be resorted as there is nothing supporting the poor on field performances.

Bits a pieces. Hopes is a better overall than him in ODIs. Pathan better in T20s.

Pathan is better than Hopes in all 3 forms of the game.

He aint better than Hodge, D Hussey. Him & Ferguson are pretty close, Raina the better T20 player though.

On current form, he indeed is better than Ferguson and Hodge. Hussey is pretty dire in ODIs so no comparison there.

The likes of Bailey & Pomersbach are very good players. India after Raina dont have much better ODI batting depth than them, didn't see any evidence of that in the IPL.

Bailey and Pomersbach are are comparable to perhaps Abhishek Nayar and Ravindra Jadeja. I'd rather back the Indians to come on the top.

Well Australia first choice ODI pace attack is Lee/Johnson/Brakcen right. Back-ups then would be Tait, Nannes, Siddle. Patel & RP aint better than none of them. They better than Hilfenhaus, Harris, Laughlin though.

RP has better performances than Nannes. Tait is probably history.

Well i just dispelled this notion...

Not really.

How could it?. Australia losing all those players is eqivalent to IND & SA losing Steyn, Khan, Morkel, Yuvraj, Kallis etc for an extended period of time for similar reasons. IND & SA depth aint better than AUS either - so its not like they would have done better.

India can fire at the same power even after losing Yuvraj and Khan because the guys replacing them are more or less adept. So that's a weak example.

Aus competition aint exactly easy either.

What then explains the continued selection of Micheal Clarke despite being dire in ODIs for almost 2 years after WC? (Avg < 30, SR - 60)

 

[Cruxdude]

Raina would be challenging Sharma for a place. The rest of that top-order is pretty settled. I can only see Ojha playing in a twin-spin attack on turning tracks.

Well Raina and Sharma might be jostling for a place now and would be replacing each other every now and then but he is a class act and can be a great player when Tendulkar retires.

Haa, why is this even a debate?
Not just Marsh. No Lee, Symonds, Watson, Tait, Ponting, Johnson, Siddle all went missing due to injuries or needed breaks. While the situation wasn'nt helped also by some crazy selections i.e laughlin & Harris.

Well as far as I remember Ponting played in the ODI series. Tait will not be playing any time soon and thinking of him as a great player is just deluding yourself. Watson playing is the bigger surprise than him being injured.
This was just a thrashing that SA gave Australia

Bits a pieces. Hopes is a better overall than him in ODIs. Pathan better in T20s.

Hopes is a no hoper. At least Pathan in swinging conditions is good.

He aint better than Hodge, D Hussey. Him & Ferguson are pretty close, Raina the better T20 player though.

If you say so. Haven't seen anything special from D. Hussey or Hodge while seen plenty from Raina already.

The likes of Bailey & Pomersbach are very good players. India after Raina dont have much better ODI batting depth than them, didn't see any evidence of that in the IPL.

Again if you say so. We have guys like Virat Kohli who has already played for India. Others would be Badri, Manish Pandey, Uthappa. Ravindra Jadeja is going to be a star in ODI's.

Well Australia first choice ODI pace attack is Lee/Johnson/Brakcen right. Back-ups then would be Tait, Nannes, Siddle. Patel & RP aint better than none of them. They better than Hilfenhaus, Harris, Laughlin though.

Nannes plays for Netherlands. Lee may be on his last legs. Bracken has run out of steam. Tait will not paly for Aussies any time soon. So there goes your argument.

 

[abhinav_super]

No,

Tendulkar >>> Any ODI player currently playinh
Sehwag >> Warner/Hughes
Dhoni >>> Haddin
Yuvraj >> Any middle order Aussie ODI batsman
Gambhir = Ponting (current form)
Khan < Johnson
Sharma > Siddle
Ojha > Bracken
Harby >>> Any Aussie spinner

One on one, clearly India is superior to Australia.



Well, attributing every single loss to poor selection proves that there is a clear disconnect between selectors perception of the best talent in the country. Secondly it is the poorest and weakest excuse to be resorted as there is nothing supporting the poor on field performances.



Pathan is better than Hopes in all 3 forms of the game.



On current form, he indeed is better than Ferguson and Hodge. Hussey is pretty dire in ODIs so no comparison there.




Bailey and Pomersbach are are comparable to perhaps Abhishek Nayar and Ravindra Jadeja. I'd rather back the Indians to come on the top.



RP has better performances than Nannes. Tait is probably history.



Not really.



India can fire at the same power even after losing Yuvraj and Khan because the guys replacing them are more or less adept. So that's a weak example.



What then explains the continued selection of Micheal Clarke despite being dire in ODIs for almost 2 years after WC? (Avg < 30, SR - 60)

Oh, mate you've forgot to mention about 2001 border -Gavaskar trophy.

India had always stopped Oz from breaking their own records of consecutive victories.

 

[Cruxdude]

Oh, mate you've forgot to mention about 2001 border -Gavaskar trophy.

India had always stopped Oz from breaking their own records of consecutive victories.

Talking about ODI's here