Flintoff's bizzare anti immigration rant

[Richard]

Both you and that site overestimate the enormity of the BNP in following or clout. That's every bit as bad in propaganda as the BNP are.

Your evidence for such a thing? Those behind that organisation have undertaken plenty of research into the matter and back-up what they say with cases of past happenings. You appear to simply be saying "they're exaggerating because I say they are and I want to try to avoid disruption to my cosy and safe world by pretending dangers don't exist".

I'm all for free speech, just because you don't like what they say you don't have the right the stop them saying it.

Well I don't TBH. I'm a believer that freedom of speech must be earned by non-abuse of it. I'd be quite happy for certain POVs - which are identified by most decent humans as pure evil, simple as - to be outlawed. I'm only too happy to stop people propogating pure evil - be it white supremacist extremism, terrorist ideals, or whatever.

There will always be pockets of racism, that's life, but they wont be anything but a niche party.

Even in Lancashire where the BNP are strongest, they only took 1 of 3 seats. The other 2 were Lib Dem, who are as opposite from the BNP as you can get.

This alone is serious damage. Though if you can't be persuaded of the fact that the BNP needs, for the safety of this country, to be a nothing party, not a minority one, then there's little more I can say.

 

[GIMH]

I don't think you should ever outlaw the BNP. It would be a dangerous precedent.

 

[Manee]

I don't think you should ever outlaw the BNP. It would be a dangerous precedent.

Very dangerous precedent, would be an absurd abuse toward democracy.

 

[GIMH]

It also annoyed me when the BBC said it was 'disgraceful' that BNP got X amount of votes in the 2001 election. They are supposed to be impartial and that is a serious breach of said policy.

Obviously it's a worry when support grows for the BNP, but that doesn't mean you can throw the rulebook out of the window.

 

[fredfertang]

No indeed - banning them is the one thing that might turn them into something more than they are

It would also, of course, be tantamount to endorsing their methods

 

[GIMH]

Yes, exactly

What are your thoughts on people in certain jobs like the Police, Prison officer etc, not being allowed to be members?

 

[Manee]

It also annoyed me when the BBC said it was 'disgraceful' that BNP got X amount of votes in the 2001 election. They are supposed to be impartial and that is a serious breach of said policy.

Obviously it's a worry when support grows for the BNP, but that doesn't mean you can throw the rulebook out of the window.

Indeed, I am getting worried with how ultra negative the media are towards the BNP, it can only serve to push people in their directon by rightfully showing how the establishment is biased against them (for understandable reasons, I must hasten to add). The BNP are indicative of modern politics though, event driven, unwilling to face harsh truths and then keen to scapegoat (immigrants, in the case of the BNP). Underlying of course is the disillusionment with modern parties - I think it does show how dire the state of affairs is though that people can be turned to an essentially facist party - akin to Nazi Germany after the First World War and Wall Street Crash, I seem to recall from my GCSE History days.

 

[Manee]

no indeed - banning them is the one thing that might turn them into something more than they are

it would also, of course, be tantamount to endorsing their methods

awta.

 

[Goughy]

As I said earlier in the thread, I actually took the time to read UKIP policies and thought there was a great deal of merit on a range of issues (if not a lot of depth)

I just read the BNP policies in depth and I cant be as generous. I expected them to be overly demonized by a sensitive and sensationalist British media. However, it was a mess of unworkable and generaly low-brow and offensive crap.

EDIT- RE: UKIP. Someone need to sort their logo out. Looks like Poundstretcher which is hardly the image a new-ish political party fighting for credibility should be trying to present

 

[GIMH]

Indeed, I am getting worried with how ultra negative the media are towards the BNP, it can only serve to push people in their directon by rightfully showing how the establishment is biased against them (for understandable reasons, I must hasten to add). The BNP are indicative of modern politics though, event driven, unwilling to face harsh truths and then keen to scapegoat (immigrants, in the case of the BNP). Underlying of course is the disillusionment with modern parties - I think it does show how dire the state of affairs is though that people can be turned to an essentially facist party - akin to Nazi Germany after the First World War and Wall Street Crash, I seem to recall from my GCSE History days.

Couldn't have put it any better. Whilst the economic situation in Germany was far bleaker than what we have here (hyper-inflation ftw) it is a similar situation and that is what they are banking on no doubt. It's no coincidence that there has been a real step up in their campaigning and it would appear their support. Thank God we have first past the post in parliament.

 

[Manee]

Couldn't have put it any better. Whilst the economic situation in Germany was far bleaker than what we have here (hyper-inflation ftw) it is a similar situation and that is what they are banking on no doubt. It's no coincidence that there has been a real step up in their campaigning and it would appear their support. Thank God we have first past the post in parliament.

Indeed. People talk about how proportional representation is necessary for democracy but I think it helps to check the main problem with democracy which is how ignorance assists extremism. Defo hyper inflation and $6billion debt is worse than our situation but the result is rather scarily similar - it is all about comparitive bleakness, I guess, I'm sure numerous people could not even fathom a recession after Gordon's prolonged boom (not too sure how he intended that to end, despite me being a fan of his).

It is quite extraordinary how expenses has assisted to create disillusionment with the big three but consistent stories about how yet another BNP member has been convicted of race hate this or that does not serve to eradicate their support totally.

As I said earlier in the thread, I actually took the time to read UKIP policies and thought there was a great deal of merit on a range of issues (if not a lot of depth)

I just read the BNP policies in depth and I cant be as generous. I expected them to be overly demonized by a sensitive and sensationalist British media. However, it was a mess of unworkable and generaly low-brow and offensive crap.

Don't give too much time to UKIP policies, they are largely cobbled together when it became apparent that a purely Euro based manifesto would not cut it. Don't expect UKIP to have any methods for implementing anything but European policies. BNP and UKIP stand for vastly different things in principle, UKIP stand for what the BNP say to be standing for, nationalism without racism but in practice, they are seen as a lesser BNP (BNP-lite) by the public, from people I have spoken to.

 

[Goughy]

Don't give too much time to UKIP policies, they are largely cobbled together when it became apparent that a purely Euro based manifesto would not cut it. Don't expect UKIP to have any methods for implementing anything but European policies. BNP and UKIP stand for vastly different things in principle, UKIP stand for what the BNP say to be standing for, nationalism without racism but in practice, they are seen as a lesser BNP (BNP-lite) by the public, from people I have spoken to.

Well they have the right idea (IMO) of re-building the manufacturing base which should be seen as a key strategic industry in any country. This has been destroyed by over the past 20 years mainly do to poor Govt policy.

I also like their commitment to exploring Nuclear power options

 

[Manee]

Well they have the right idea (IMO) of re-building the manufacturing base which should be seen as a key strategic industry in any country. This has been destroyed by over the past 20 years mainly do to poor Govt policy.

I also like their commitment to exploring Nuclear power options

The whole point is that they can say whatever they like with no worry about costs or any sort of practicality because, of course, they won't attain Government.

 

[Uppercut]

The UK Independence Party is the only moderate, democratic party to advocate Britain’s withdrawal from the European Union.

I got one sentence in. Reasonable my arse.

 

[Goughy]

The whole point is that they can say whatever they like with no worry about costs or any sort of practicality because, of course, they won't attain Government.

Very true. But the way politics works (and why small parties are needed, even extremeist) is that the big parties are bottom feeders. They rehash the popular and good ideas of the minority groups. If a policy like UKIPs commitment to rebuilding the manufatuing base is seen as a good idea then it will be incorporated by another party with a chance to win.

Basically they may never get elected but they bring the issue to the political table. Thats why it is important to hear them say it.

 

[Manee]

Very true. But the way politics works (and why small parties are needed, even extremeist) is that the big parties are bottom feeders. They rehash the popular and good ideas of the minority groups. If a policy like UKIPs commitment to rebuilding the manufatuing base is seen as a good idea then it will be incorporated by another party with a chance to win.

Basically they may never get elected but they bring the issue to the political table. Thats why it is important to hear them say it.

Very very interesting point.

 

[fredfertang]

Yes, exactly

What are your thoughts on people in certain jobs like the Police, Prison officer etc, not being allowed to be members?

I have to be honest and say that, as a wishy washy bleeding heart liberal, such a ban runs totally contrary to my instincts but, on balance, I have to accept that such a ban is necessary to protect the integrity of those two particular organisations - at the end of the day I console myself with the fact that it's not restricting freedom of thought or even expression but just limits the means for it that certain individuals can use

 

[GIMH]

Yeah, I'm similar (though wouldn't ever call myself a liberal, ha) in that I think that people should be allowed to be part of whatever organisations they want, but there is obviously logic to people not being allowed to join fascist organisations when they are in such roles.

My old man is a Prison Officer and, as you alluded to, he is obviously allowed to vote for them (he doesn't, btw!), just not join them.

I've no sympathy for those who lost their jobs over it as it is in their contracts. So even if you felt it shouldn't be in their contracts, they only have themselves to blame!

 

[Uppercut]

Very true. But the way politics works (and why small parties are needed, even extremeist) is that the big parties are bottom feeders. They rehash the popular and good ideas of the minority groups. If a policy like UKIPs commitment to rebuilding the manufatuing base is seen as a good idea then it will be incorporated by another party with a chance to win.

Basically they may never get elected but they bring the issue to the political table. Thats why it is important to hear them say it.

This is true, yeah. I remember reading the other day that Jacqui Smith has incorporated a points system for immigration very recently, which could be attributed partly to the press coverage the BNP is receiving.

Anyway, I'm having a look at the UKIP policies, and some of it just lies. There's no other word for it. £40 million a day to Europe? The gross contribution per year listed in the treasury report is £13.7 bn, not £14.6 bn which is the figure they've pulled out of their arses. 900 million pounds out is pretty poor maths.

But that's only a small error in context. In actual fact, they've used gross rather than net contribution. The net contribution for 2007 was £4.6bn, and that for 2008 is estimated to be £3.6bn. Still sound like a lot? The estimated cost to the government of paying interest on foreign debt is £28bn per year. If you're poor, it's not because we've all given your money to Europe.

I don't mind an anti-EU stance, not at all (completely agree with plenty of points made against it), but I really would prefer if they didn't deliberately massively mislead voters.

Source

 

[Jamee999]

Indeed, I am getting worried with how ultra negative the media are towards the BNP, it can only serve to push people in their directon by rightfully showing how the establishment is biased against them (for understandable reasons, I must hasten to add). The BNP are indicative of modern politics though, event driven, unwilling to face harsh truths and then keen to scapegoat (immigrants, in the case of the BNP). Underlying of course is the disillusionment with modern parties - I think it does show how dire the state of affairs is though that people can be turned to an essentially facist party - akin to Nazi Germany after the First World War and Wall Street Crash, I seem to recall from my GCSE History days.

There are (alarming) parallels between the BNP and the Nazi Party, both in terms of the actual parties, as well as the world around them, but this recession is really nothing like early-1930s Germany, in terms of its severity.