• Welcome to the Cricket Web forums, one of the biggest forums in the world dedicated to cricket.

    You are currently viewing our boards as a guest which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our free community you will have access to post topics, respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free so please, join the Cricket Web community today!

    If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us.

***Official*** IPL 2009

Furball

Evil Scotsman
I see 4 half centuries.
Take his 82 ball 63 against Australia in 2000, chasing 330.

While you can argue that it's a decent score at a decent rate, it's actually a useless innings in the context of the situation, particularly since he got out.

Plodding your way to a 50 at a SR of 75 when you're chasing 300+ is only useful if you can then accelerate and get to your ton off 100 balls. Otherwise, when you fall, you're putting immense pressure on the guys below you to come in and tee off from ball one. More often than not, the lower order will collapse under the pressure.

Which, incidentally looking at the scorecard, is exactly what happened.
 

Smith

Banned
I see 4 half centuries.
A 63 out of 103 balls chasing 275 won't do the team any use am afraid. I have listed only knocks which were slow and which hugely deviated from the required SR. There were indeed times when the average Indian fan wished Dravid would get out early so that he won't make India lose the momentum while chasing big targets.

To be fair to him, he almost completely changed that perception post 2000.
 

honestbharani

Whatever it takes!!!
Take his 82 ball 63 against Australia in 2000, chasing 330.

While you can argue that it's a decent score at a decent rate, it's actually a useless innings in the context of the situation, particularly since he got out.

Plodding your way to a 50 at a SR of 75 when you're chasing 300+ is only useful if you can then accelerate and get to your ton off 100 balls. Otherwise, when you fall, you're putting immense pressure on the guys below you to come in and tee off from ball one. More often than not, the lower order will collapse under the pressure.

Which, incidentally looking at the scorecard, is exactly what happened.
A 63 out of 103 balls chasing 275 won't do the team any use am afraid. I have listed only knocks which were slow and which hugely deviated from the required SR. There were indeed times when the average Indian fan wished Dravid would get out early so that he won't make India lose the momentum while chasing big targets.

To be fair to him, he almost completely changed that perception post 2000.


Context, should be determined by actually watching the game.... Judging contexts off scorecards is extremely extremely dangerous because you will NEVER get it completely right and most often, you will get it completely wrong.



I agree with what Pratyush said, actually... He is an awesome test match batsman and a moderate ODI bat who in his later years graduated to good...


For any number of innings you say he cost us matches, I can show an equal number that won us matches...
 

Uppercut

Request Your Custom Title Now!
For any number of innings you say he cost us matches, I can show an equal number that won us matches...
:laugh: He's not supposed to win the other team as many matches as he wins India!

Having a negative impact on your side's prospects in any matches is horrendous.
 

honestbharani

Whatever it takes!!!
:laugh: He's not supposed to win the other team as many matches as he wins India!

Having a negative impact on your side's prospects in any matches is horrendous.
yes, but almost EVERY player in history costs his sides games...... As a matter of fact, almost every failure can be regarded as "costing" your team the game, because you have not contributed much... IN this context, almost all players will win the opponents more games than for their own teams..



Of course, if you are talking about significant scores made at low strike rates, then you may be right but as I said, except a handful of those instances, almost all the time, there was a reason as to him batting at that strike rate.. That context can never really be caught by the scorecard.
 

Uppercut

Request Your Custom Title Now!
yes, but almost EVERY player in history costs his sides games...... As a matter of fact, almost every failure can be regarded as "costing" your team the game, because you have not contributed much... IN this context, almost all players will win the opponents more games than for their own teams..



Of course, if you are talking about significant scores made at low strike rates, then you may be right but as I said, except a handful of those instances, almost all the time, there was a reason as to him batting at that strike rate.. That context can never really be caught by the scorecard.
No, you're right, but i didn't get that impression of Dravid by looking at scorecards, i just looked through the scorecards when Jono asked me for examples of something i'd noticed in general. Smith's (Precam's?) analysis was really very good- like all statistical analysis it has its limits- and picked out a lot of such innings, along with a few that were perhaps misleading.
 

honestbharani

Whatever it takes!!!
checked the list again... There were about 6 or 7 innings post 2001... Even conceding all 6 to be bad innings, that out of about 200 or so that he might have played in this time (we play that many ODIs, lol) is still low enough for me to rank him as amongst the "good" to "very good" ODI batsman of that era..

I wonder if a similar analysis for Tendulkar, Kallis, Lara, Ponting etc. is possible.
 

Smith

Banned
Context, should be determined by actually watching the game.... Judging contexts off scorecards is extremely extremely dangerous because you will NEVER get it completely right and most often, you will get it completely wrong.



I agree with what Pratyush said, actually... He is an awesome test match batsman and a moderate ODI bat who in his later years graduated to good...


For any number of innings you say he cost us matches, I can show an equal number that won us matches...
:laugh: @ the suggestion "for every lost match, there is match won by him"

Please show me the proof of Dravid having to play according to the "situation" in those matches I listed. There is really no supporting argument whatsoever for a player to have a SR of 30 less than the required SR.

Dravid is a great batsman, don't get me wrong there. However for a period of about 4 or 5 years in his career, he was mostly a liability than an asset in ODIs. That changed however post 2000.

Regarding your next argument of almost every batsman doing the same as Dravid, they would, but the instances will be terrible less. Steve Waugh, who is often unheralded in the world of ODIs, has played 320 ODIs, lost about 120+ of those, and I tried to do a similar analysis like that I did with Dravid. I found really no evidence of Steve having a differential of SR more than 30 with the req SR in those instances, barring some extra ordinary situations, which I had applied in Dravid's case also.
 

Smith

Banned
checked the list again... There were about 6 or 7 innings post 2001... Even conceding all 6 to be bad innings, that out of about 200 or so that he might have played in this time (we play that many ODIs, lol) is still low enough for me to rank him as amongst the "good" to "very good" ODI batsman of that era..

I wonder if a similar analysis for Tendulkar, Kallis, Lara, Ponting etc. is possible.
You are more than welcome to prove that is a common occurence over any player who has played a handful of matches. As I said, I tried doing it with Steve Waugh, because he too has a SR of around 75. But I came out a cropper.
 

honestbharani

Whatever it takes!!!
:laugh: @ the suggestion "for every lost match, there is match won by him"

Please show me the proof of Dravid having to play according to the "situation" in those matches I listed. There is really no supporting argument whatsoever for a player to have a SR of 30 less than the required SR.

Dravid is a great batsman, don't get me wrong there. However for a period of about 4 or 5 years in his career, he was mostly a liability than an asset in ODIs. That changed however post 2000.

Regarding your next argument of almost every batsman doing the same as Dravid, they would, but the instances will be terrible less. Steve Waugh, who is often unheralded in the world of ODIs, has played 320 ODIs, lost about 120+ of those, and I tried to do a similar analysis like that I did with Dravid. I found really no evidence of Steve having a differential of SR more than 30 with the req SR in those instances, barring some extra ordinary situations, which I had applied in Dravid's case also.
lol.. I was talking about post 2001... I do think he won us more than 6 or 7 games, the number that you have as he "lost" for us during that period...


After that Eden Gardens innings, the way he batted in ODIs and to an extent, even in tests definitely changed...
 

SJS

Hall of Fame Member
An ODI team needs both stroke players and those who can build the innings. Having all players of only one type is asking for trouble. So is trying to compare one type of player with the other. Of course there are those greats like Tendulkar Viv Richards etc who will score big, consistently and quickly but unfortunately they are not that common unless we are making all time great sides and using time machines.

If you rank the top one day batsmen by aggregate runs scored and also rank batsmen by highest strike rates, you will fine that there are some who are high on the runs list but are nowhere to be seen in the strike rate list. So what should we assume? that they should never have played all those games that they did?

Here is a list of such batsmen with their strike rates.
Code:
[B]Player        	Mat	S/R	Runs[/B]
Tillakaratne, 	200	57.6	3789
Mahanama, R S	213	60.6	5162
Haynes, D L	238	63.1	8648
Ramiz Raja	198	63.3	5841
Richardson, R B	224	63.8	6248
Harris, C Z	250	66.5	4379
Javed Miandad	233	67.0	7381
Flower, G W	219	67.5	6536
Atapattu, M S	267	67.7	8529
Jadeja, A D	196	69.8	5359
Chanderpaul, S*	248	71.1	8154
[B]Dravid, R *	333	71.2	10585[/B]
Border, A R	273	71.4	6524
Fleming, S P	279	71.5	8037
[B]Kallis, J H*	291	71.9	10239[/B]
Astle, N J	222	72.6	7090
Ganguly, S C	311	73.7	11363
Sangakkara, 	245	73.9	7408
Azharuddin, M	334	74.0	9378
Bevan, M G	232	74.2	6912
Inzamam-ul-Haq	378	74.2	11739
Flower, A	213	74.6	6786
The list was much longer. I have pruned it based on those 21 who played the most Tests. You may ignore some of the older ones like Border and Haynes for they played in an era where strike rates were lower (although they still stand out against players like Richards and Zaheer who scored in the 80's). So what are we saying? that these players were no good ODI players? Of course that is non-sense. They have a role to play and that role is different from the one played by the Jayasuriyas and Afridis (I am intentionally picking those with fabulous strike rates but poorer averages). Eleven Afridi's wouldn't win you a world cup nor would eleven Dravid's.

This arguement is pointless because both sides are taking extreme positions. If you try to depict Rahul (or Kallis) as a terrible ODI player becuase of the low strike rate you are forgetting their immense contributions in games they helped win by resurrecting the innings and on many occasions accelrating too. Rahul's slowest 100 is 104 in 139 balls against Pakistan. All others are in the 80's and above. His average strike rate for his 100's is 117. Of course Jayasuriya's will be higher but we are not to compare them. By the way, Rahul's strike rate for all scores above 50 is 82.3 and for all scores above 40 is 80.1 - not as bad as we think.

On the other hand, those trying to portray Dravid (or Kallis) as a good/very good/great ODI player are doing him great injustice by falling into the trap of using just strike rates to evaluate this. He was never taken into the ODI side to boost the scoring rate - nor, by the way, was Michael Bevan whose figures are before you.

The problem of people like Dravid is that they play in a country like India where dropping a super star is unthinkable. Dropping means almost ending someone's career. Nonsense of course but true. This has a terrible impact when the player is being made to play, when out of form, in a format where there can be situations not ideally suited to his game. An in form Dravid, can and has scored at very good pace in ODI's but if the guy is in poor batting form as it is and enters the ground with runs required at a maniacal clip, what is going to happen - disaster.

Indian super stars have done no favours to the team and also grave damage to their own reputations by not taking a 'voluntary time out' when out of form. Rahul should have done it even in Test matches at least on one occasion. Fortunately for him India persevered (partly because they were short on great alternative options) with him for almost two years till he struck form in a Test match. In the one day game it meant the end of his career.

The shorter version of the game is the last place for struggling players to try and recover their touch - the team just cant afford the time. An out of form Tendulkar, maybe, Sehwag, sure (for they can and will hit their way out of form) Dravid and his ilk need to play themselves into form and ODI's are not for net practice.

If Dravid has played too many ODI's for India, it is the ones he has played when his overall form was poor or when, recently, we have had good alternatives. On the other hand a few times when he was kept out because he was not a stroke player was also not justified.

PS : I dont think Dravid would have played so many games for India if he had not started keeping wickets in ODI's. He was the designated keeper in 73 games out of the 333 he has played in all.
 
Last edited:

World Cricket

Cricket Spectator
An anchor in an innings is so important and should never be underestimated.

I'd say in twenty20 they are no longer needed but in the longer form of the game, ODIs, having an anchor coupled with explosive players coming in is the ultimate situation a side can find themselves in.
 

honestbharani

Whatever it takes!!!
The most interesting aspect there in SJS' list is Sourav Ganguly.. He has about 2.5 better strike rate and 800 runs more..


And yet I bet some of those berating Dravid for his SR here would rate Sourav as amongst the greatest ever ODI bats....
 

Uppercut

Request Your Custom Title Now!
:laugh: @ the suggestion "for every lost match, there is match won by him"

Please show me the proof of Dravid having to play according to the "situation" in those matches I listed. There is really no supporting argument whatsoever for a player to have a SR of 30 less than the required SR.

Dravid is a great batsman, don't get me wrong there. However for a period of about 4 or 5 years in his career, he was mostly a liability than an asset in ODIs. That changed however post 2000.

Regarding your next argument of almost every batsman doing the same as Dravid, they would, but the instances will be terrible less. Steve Waugh, who is often unheralded in the world of ODIs, has played 320 ODIs, lost about 120+ of those, and I tried to do a similar analysis like that I did with Dravid. I found really no evidence of Steve having a differential of SR more than 30 with the req SR in those instances, barring some extra ordinary situations, which I had applied in Dravid's case also.
By the way, did your analysis only include games where India were chasing? Or did you calculate a required strike rate based on the total the other team made in their second innings?

If it's the former, it's reasonable to assume you only got half of the innings where Dravid scored too slowly.
 

Uppercut

Request Your Custom Title Now!
The most interesting aspect there in SJS' list is Sourav Ganguly.. He has about 2.5 better strike rate and 800 runs more..


And yet I bet some of those berating Dravid for his SR here would rate Sourav as amongst the greatest ever ODI bats....
I don't actually rate Ganguly as one of the greatest ever ODI bats, but i'll still say he's a lot better than Dravid because- as some people seem to be at pains to point out- statistics aren't everything. I can remember plenty of time watching India and growing frustrated thinking "Dravid's scoring far too slowly here...". I very, very rarely felt that way with Ganguly.
 

Uppercut

Request Your Custom Title Now!
The aspect I notice about SJS's list is that a lot of them either played in weak teams or in a different era. The other thing to note is that a lot of the players have a higher average than Dravid. If he was averaging over 50 like Bevan he would damage India's chances a lot less, but scoring slowly for a period of time and then getting out is where the major problem arises. There are only a handful of comparable players- Sangakkara is one whose strike rate is a bit too low for comfort, and it does occasionally have the same effect.

He does make an excellent point about a player's form though. An in-form Dravid is much less likely to play the type of knock I'm talking about than an out-of-form Dravid, and leaving him out when things aren't going his way would certainly have been a good option.
 

honestbharani

Whatever it takes!!!
I don't actually rate Ganguly as one of the greatest ever ODI bats, but i'll still say he's a lot better than Dravid because- as some people seem to be at pains to point out- statistics aren't everything. I can remember plenty of time watching India and growing frustrated thinking "Dravid's scoring far too slowly here...". I very, very rarely felt that way with Ganguly.
I will tell you what, post 2003, I have felt that way about Ganguly a number of times than about Dravid... And I have basically watched/followed/bit of both every ODI India played in this time..
 

Smith

Banned
By the way, did your analysis only include games where India were chasing? Or did you calculate a required strike rate based on the total the other team made in their second innings?

If it's the former, it's reasonable to assume you only got half of the innings where Dravid scored too slowly.
The former, I've culled out all hypothetical situations and included only 2nd innings.
 

Smith

Banned
This arguement is pointless because both sides are taking extreme positions. If you try to depict Rahul (or Kallis) as a terrible ODI player becuase of the low strike rate you are forgetting their immense contributions in games they helped win by resurrecting the innings and on many occasions accelrating too. Rahul's slowest 100 is 104 in 139 balls against Pakistan. All others are in the 80's and above. His average strike rate for his 100's is 117. Of course Jayasuriya's will be higher but we are not to compare them. By the way, Rahul's strike rate for all scores above 50 is 82.3 and for all scores above 40 is 80.1 - not as bad as we think.
Dravid's SR for 100+ scores is 95 and not 117 as you mentioned. His highest SR ever in a 100+ innings is 112 vs SL at Taunton in 99. Out of his 12 100s, only 5 have SR of 100 or above.

For comparison, during the same period (From 96 March to till date, the world avg SR for 100+ scores is 97,

For 50+ scores, the SR is 82 which is quite ok but not exactly great. The world avg SR for 50+ scores since 96 is 99.

For 40+ scores, the SR comes further down to 80. The world avg SR is 85.

So while it can be argued that Dravid matches upto RoW for 100+ scores, the counterargument would be that he has scored only 12+ such scores in his entire career so far. He falls way behind in terms of 50+ scores, and 40+ scores.

So SRs of 82 and 80 are not exactly great.

Another way of seeing this is that Dravid has 110 scores of 40+ at SR of 80. That means there are 223 matches in which he did not cross 40, ie, about two thirds of his career. So what is his performance in those two thirds of his career?

I will ignore the average as it makes no sense. But the SR is 53. In essence, Dravid has an avg SR of 53 in 67% of matches he has played for India.

The corresponding SRs of Tendulkar is 66 (264 times/425 = 62% of his career) and Ganguly is 60 (199 times/311 = 64% of his career)
 

honestbharani

Whatever it takes!!!
Dravid's SR for 100+ scores is 95 and not 117 as you mentioned. His highest SR ever in a 100+ innings is 112 vs SL at Taunton in 99. Out of his 12 100s, only 5 have SR of 100 or above.

For comparison, during the same period (From 96 March to till date, the world avg SR for 100+ scores is 97,

For 50+ scores, the SR is 82 which is quite ok but not exactly great. The world avg SR for 50+ scores since 96 is 99.

For 40+ scores, the SR comes further down to 80. The world avg SR is 85.

So while it can be argued that Dravid matches upto RoW for 100+ scores, the counterargument would be that he has scored only 12+ such scores in his entire career so far. He falls way behind in terms of 50+ scores, and 40+ scores.

So SRs of 82 and 80 are not exactly great.

Another way of seeing this is that Dravid has 110 scores of 40+ at SR of 80. That means there are 223 matches in which he did not cross 40, ie, about two thirds of his career. So what is his performance in those two thirds of his career?

I will ignore the average as it makes no sense. But the SR is 53. In essence, Dravid has an avg SR of 53 in 67% of matches he has played for India.

The corresponding SRs of Tendulkar is 66 (264 times/425 = 62% of his career) and Ganguly is 60 (199 times/311 = 64% of his career)
interesting that Ganguly averages a good 6 points up over Dravid when they fail to cross 40 in terms of SR and yet his overall SR is only 2.5 points or so better than Dravid...



So obviously, he scores slower than Dravid when comparing only their 40+ scores, right?
 

Top