***Official*** IPL 2009

[Uppercut]

No offence meant here Uppercut, but its hard to take you seriously when you point to a match where Pakistan were 4-9, and say Pakistan would have been better with 10 batsmen, and no Inzy.

If you're going to use a particular example you don't agree with to dismiss the entire argument then there's not much more to be said.

 

[SirBloody Idiot]

Curious to see your examples where Rahul solely lost matches.

I've had a look through and there aren't all that many. Many of his worst knocks come when India get bundled out for about 100 - ones where he strikes between 10-20 for a prolonged period of time. I'm not sure it's a good thing for him to get so bogged down so often just because the team lose early wickets.

Some examples though are his 20 in 54 where the Windies chased down a decent total with only three overs to spare; 33 in 86 against Pakistan; 30 in 65 against South Africa where they fell about twenty short; 65 in 106 in a game that came right down to the wire; 67 in 108 in a similar game.

I'm sure there are others, but he was probably forced to play this way a lot of the time due to India's catastrophic top order collapses. That being said, his slow batting gave India less of a chance than Inzi's batting gave Pakistan IMO.

 

[Jono]

If you're going to use a particular example you don't agree with to dismiss the entire argument then there's not much more to be said.

Because its a poor example.

You've obviously gone through matches where a certain player has scored at a lower strike rate than usual, and the team has just fallen short chasing. You've failed to take into account the pitch, the situation, the opposition etc.

An example of a team being 4-9 clearly damages the credibility of your argument. Especially where you say the team would have been better without that batsman (in your example, Inzy). Surely you see this?

In general, I don't see how someone who scores 50 from 70 should be more maligned than a batsman who scores 2 from 3.

 

[Jono]

That being said, his slow batting gave India less of a chance than Inzi's batting gave Pakistan IMO.

Agree. Same with Yousuf.

I think Uppercut's arguments against Dravid are sound, though I don't entirely agree. But you can't just group batsmen with averages of 39-44 and strike rates of 70-75 together and say they all aren't valuable as people think.

There are so many variables. And the difference between Kallis and Dravid's average is very significant. Just as significant as the difference between Ponting and Graeme Smith in test matches.

 

[Furball]

Dhoni.

No chance.

At the end of his career maybe, but not even close right now.

 

[Uppercut]

Because its a poor example.

You've obviously gone through matches where a certain player has scored at a lower strike rate than usual, and the team has just fallen short chasing. You've failed to take into account the pitch, the situation, the opposition etc.

An example of a team being 4-9 clearly damages the credibility of your argument. Especially where you say the team would have been better without that batsman (in your example, Inzy). Surely you see this?

In general, I don't see how someone who scores 50 from 70 should be more maligned than a batsman who scores 2 from 3.

Fine, poor example.

50 from 70 is usually a pretty decent innings. That's Dravid striking at exactly his average strike rate though, so by a crude measure he'll be striking below that about half the time. 33 from 86 on the other hand, with a strike rate of 38 is indeed quite often more damaging than 2 from 3 would be. But rest assured, if a batsman was frequently scoring 2 from 3 I'd be even more critical of them.

 

[Jono]

Lots of examples. My personal favourite is the 33 off 86 balls setting a target for Pakistan. There's also 31 off 48 chasing 306, 54 off 96 setting a target, 47 off 57 chasing 359. The common feature is that India lost each match. In some of the matches he even top-scored, making him look like some kind of a lone ranger. I propose that a collapse is the inevitable result when someone lets the run rate rise so dramatically that following batsmen have to score at a run a ball to have any chance of making the total.

Some good examples there, but you cannot say Dravid lost India that World Cup final in 2003 That's so ludicrous. Sachin did a bigger job of losing that final, as did Kaif. Clutching at straws.

 

[Jono]

Fine, poor example.

50 from 70 is usually a pretty decent innings. That's Dravid striking at exactly his average strike rate though, so by a crude measure he'll be striking below that about half the time. 33 from 86 on the other hand, with a strike rate of 38 is indeed quite often more damaging than 2 from 3 would be. But rest assured, if a batsman was frequently scoring 2 from 3 I'd be even more critical of them.

Haha that 33 from 86 was indeed woeful. I remember watching it and not quite understanding why that was occurring either.

 

[Uppercut]

There are so many variables. And the difference between Kallis and Dravid's average is very significant. Just as significant as the difference between Ponting and Graeme Smith in test matches.

Kallis is considerably better than Dravid, but i still think he's a touch overrated as ODIs go. Which, given i think he's massively underrated in tests, is a bit unusual.

The difference between Smith and Ponting in tests is the Bangladesh effect and longevity. Smith's sitting on 47 to Ponting's 55 and has about half as many runs. If he were to score 5000 more and brings his average up above 50, i think people would start talking about him in the same breath as Ponting. Especially when you consider his knack of scoring big runs under pressure, the fact that he opens and the fact that he bats in the most difficult country to do so.

 

[Smith]

Curious to see your examples where Rahul solely lost matches.

 Runs 	 BF 	 SR 	Opposition	Start Date	Chasing	 RSR 	Diff
 28 	 79 	 35.44 	v Pakistan	8-Apr-99	280	 93.33 	 57.89 
 9 	 30 	 30.00 	v Pakistan	16-Sep-98	258	 86.00 	 56.00 
 16 	 38 	 42.10 	v Australia	9-Oct-05	294	 98.00 	 55.90 
 21 	 36 	 58.33 	v Sri Lanka	5-Aug-01	296	 98.67 	 40.34 
 15 	 31 	 48.38 	v Pakistan	21-Jan-00	263	 87.67 	 39.29 
 24 	 44 	 54.54 	v Sri Lanka	1-Jun-00	277	 92.33 	 37.79 
 31 	 48 	 64.58 	v Australia	2-Oct-07	307	 102.3 	 37.75 
 16 	 59 	 27.11 	v West Indies	12-Sep-99	191	 63.67 	 36.56 
 63 	 82 	 76.82 	v Australia	26-Jan-00	330	 110.0 	 33.18 
 30 	 65 	 46.15 	v South Africa	3-Oct-99	236	 78.67 	 32.52 
 46 	 72 	 63.88 	v England	21-Aug-07	289	 96.33 	 32.45 
 63 	 103 	 61.16 	v South Africa	26-Nov-06	275	 91.67 	 30.51 
 25 	 37 	 67.56 	v Pakistan	4-Apr-99	292	 97.33 	 29.77 
 15 	 36 	 41.66 	v New Zealand	20-Jul-01	212	 70.67 	 29.01 
 29 	 46 	 63.04 	v Pakistan	26-Mar-00	273	 91.00 	 27.96 
 42 	 68 	 61.76 	v Sri Lanka	24-Aug-97	265	 88.33 	 26.57 
 33 	 53 	 62.26 	v Kenya		28-May-98	266	 88.67 	 26.41 
 69 	 99 	 69.69 	v Sri Lanka	9-Aug-05	282	 94.00 	 24.31 
 18 	 30 	 60.00 	v Pakistan	13-Sep-98	247	 82.33 	 22.33 
 28 	 42 	 66.66 	v Zimbabwe	30-Sep-98	260	 86.67 	 20.01 
 27 	 57 	 47.36 	v New Zealand	26-Jul-01	201	 67.00 	 19.64 
 60 	 85 	 70.58 	v Australia	12-Jan-00	270	 90.00 	 19.42 
 49* 	 81 	 60.49 	v Sri Lanka	22-Jul-01	222	 74.00 	 13.51 
 74 	 105 	 70.47 	v West Indies	30-Apr-97	250	 83.33 	 12.86

I have considered only selected innings from Indian chases where Dravid flopped hugely.

RSR = required SR :-)

 

[Jono]

Not saying you're wrong, but surely you would have to see the scorecards to properly assess those.

Some of them look like genuine bad knocks, but 60 from 85 chasing 270... I fail to see how that 'lost' them the match. It would only have lost them the match if they were cruising and he was going slowly.

Was that the match where Ganguly was incorrectly given 'run out'?

Also 74 off 105 chasing 250 doesn't seem too bad. Again, would need to see the scorecard.

 

[Uppercut]

Some good examples there, but you cannot say Dravid lost India that World Cup final in 2003 That's so ludicrous. Sachin did a bigger job of losing that final, as did Kaif. Clutching at straws.

Aye, i don't think they were ever getting there tbh. SBI did a better job with the examples than i did.

It's not that often, but it's seriously poor when it does happen. I wouldn't want players in my team that will, even occasionally, have a negative impact on our performance. It's the equivalent of a footballer who contributes solidly most of the time, but once every 20 matches decides to score an own goal for no reason. It hurts my pretty little brain

 

[Uppercut]

 Runs 	 BF 	 SR 	Opposition	Start Date	Chasing	 RSR 	Diff
 28 	 79 	 35.44 	v Pakistan	8-Apr-99	280	 93.33 	 57.89 
 9 	 30 	 30.00 	v Pakistan	16-Sep-98	258	 86.00 	 56.00 
 16 	 38 	 42.10 	v Australia	9-Oct-05	294	 98.00 	 55.90 
 21 	 36 	 58.33 	v Sri Lanka	5-Aug-01	296	 98.67 	 40.34 
 15 	 31 	 48.38 	v Pakistan	21-Jan-00	263	 87.67 	 39.29 
 24 	 44 	 54.54 	v Sri Lanka	1-Jun-00	277	 92.33 	 37.79 
 31 	 48 	 64.58 	v Australia	2-Oct-07	307	 102.3 	 37.75 
 16 	 59 	 27.11 	v West Indies	12-Sep-99	191	 63.67 	 36.56 
 63 	 82 	 76.82 	v Australia	26-Jan-00	330	 110.0 	 33.18 
 30 	 65 	 46.15 	v South Africa	3-Oct-99	236	 78.67 	 32.52 
 46 	 72 	 63.88 	v England	21-Aug-07	289	 96.33 	 32.45 
 63 	 103 	 61.16 	v South Africa	26-Nov-06	275	 91.67 	 30.51 
 25 	 37 	 67.56 	v Pakistan	4-Apr-99	292	 97.33 	 29.77 
 15 	 36 	 41.66 	v New Zealand	20-Jul-01	212	 70.67 	 29.01 
 29 	 46 	 63.04 	v Pakistan	26-Mar-00	273	 91.00 	 27.96 
 42 	 68 	 61.76 	v Sri Lanka	24-Aug-97	265	 88.33 	 26.57 
 33 	 53 	 62.26 	v Kenya		28-May-98	266	 88.67 	 26.41 
 69 	 99 	 69.69 	v Sri Lanka	9-Aug-05	282	 94.00 	 24.31 
 18 	 30 	 60.00 	v Pakistan	13-Sep-98	247	 82.33 	 22.33 
 28 	 42 	 66.66 	v Zimbabwe	30-Sep-98	260	 86.67 	 20.01 
 27 	 57 	 47.36 	v New Zealand	26-Jul-01	201	 67.00 	 19.64 
 60 	 85 	 70.58 	v Australia	12-Jan-00	270	 90.00 	 19.42 
 49* 	 81 	 60.49 	v Sri Lanka	22-Jul-01	222	 74.00 	 13.51 
 74 	 105 	 70.47 	v West Indies	30-Apr-97	250	 83.33 	 12.86

I have considered only selected innings from Indian chases where Dravid flopped hugely.

RSR = required SR :-)

That's some quite nice analysis

 

[Smith]

That's some quite nice analysis

Thank you. I agree with Jono to some extent. But that does not absolve Dravid of the fact that he indeed was responsible for India losing many achievable chases.

 

[Cruxdude]

Inzamam lost Pakistan matches too though. Innings like 101 off 121 in a 40 over match, 59 off 86, 85 off 116 are often counter-productive. In some cases you could even go as far to say the team would have been better off with 10 batsmen.
.

I think you ddn't check the whole scorecard. That 85 off 116 was after the team was 9/4 . Since when did 101 off 121 become slow? Since IPL 08?? That is a pretty good innings and in the other match you quoted the whole match is a low scoring one. Must be the pitch.

Sorry I didn't see the numerous replies for your above post. Please ignore this post.

 

[Cruxdude]

Dravid had this habit of getting into a shell and not coming out of it. This happened in ODI's as well as in test matches. I remember the 2008 Aussie series where I used to wake up at 4.30 in the morning to see him scoring at < 1 run rate and get out after that.

But he was still a great player and in his later years in ODI he did a pretty good job of a finisher.

 

[Pratters]

Dravid was an awesome test player and a good ODI player at his best. Nothing more, nothing less.

 

[ret]

tbf, when guys like Kallis are playing against India on flat surfaces, I hope that they play a long [and slow] inning of 80+ .... I would assume that guys like Dravid would be generating similar feeling in the opposition .... But this doesn't mean that they haven't played some good knocks on flat pitches and when the conditions are tough to bat then obviously these guys are useful

 

[slowfinger]

 Runs 	 BF 	 SR 	Opposition	Start Date	Chasing	 RSR 	Diff
 28 	 79 	 35.44 	v Pakistan	8-Apr-99	280	 93.33 	 57.89 
 9 	 30 	 30.00 	v Pakistan	16-Sep-98	258	 86.00 	 56.00 
 16 	 38 	 42.10 	v Australia	9-Oct-05	294	 98.00 	 55.90 
 21 	 36 	 58.33 	v Sri Lanka	5-Aug-01	296	 98.67 	 40.34 
 15 	 31 	 48.38 	v Pakistan	21-Jan-00	263	 87.67 	 39.29 
 24 	 44 	 54.54 	v Sri Lanka	1-Jun-00	277	 92.33 	 37.79 
 31 	 48 	 64.58 	v Australia	2-Oct-07	307	 102.3 	 37.75 
 16 	 59 	 27.11 	v West Indies	12-Sep-99	191	 63.67 	 36.56 
 63 	 82 	 76.82 	v Australia	26-Jan-00	330	 110.0 	 33.18 
 30 	 65 	 46.15 	v South Africa	3-Oct-99	236	 78.67 	 32.52 
 46 	 72 	 63.88 	v England	21-Aug-07	289	 96.33 	 32.45 
 63 	 103 	 61.16 	v South Africa	26-Nov-06	275	 91.67 	 30.51 
 25 	 37 	 67.56 	v Pakistan	4-Apr-99	292	 97.33 	 29.77 
 15 	 36 	 41.66 	v New Zealand	20-Jul-01	212	 70.67 	 29.01 
 29 	 46 	 63.04 	v Pakistan	26-Mar-00	273	 91.00 	 27.96 
 42 	 68 	 61.76 	v Sri Lanka	24-Aug-97	265	 88.33 	 26.57 
 33 	 53 	 62.26 	v Kenya		28-May-98	266	 88.67 	 26.41 
 69 	 99 	 69.69 	v Sri Lanka	9-Aug-05	282	 94.00 	 24.31 
 18 	 30 	 60.00 	v Pakistan	13-Sep-98	247	 82.33 	 22.33 
 28 	 42 	 66.66 	v Zimbabwe	30-Sep-98	260	 86.67 	 20.01 
 27 	 57 	 47.36 	v New Zealand	26-Jul-01	201	 67.00 	 19.64 
 60 	 85 	 70.58 	v Australia	12-Jan-00	270	 90.00 	 19.42 
 49* 	 81 	 60.49 	v Sri Lanka	22-Jul-01	222	 74.00 	 13.51 
 74 	 105 	 70.47 	v West Indies	30-Apr-97	250	 83.33 	 12.86

I have considered only selected innings from Indian chases where Dravid flopped hugely.

RSR = required SR :-)

I see 4 half centuries.

 

[Jarquis]

I see 4 half centuries.

I see 5.