Greatest individual performance ever

[Cruxdude]

Jim Laker, of course - 9 in the first innings, 10 in the second. That really takes some thinking about. And in an Ashes Test.

The pitch was obviously tailor-made for him too but his team-mates weren't trying to avoid taking a wicket at the other end, as happened in Kumble's case.

An India Pakistan test in 1999 would rank much higher than any ashes test and the pressures involved can't be imagined by anyone other than those from subcontinent. Wether you take it or not. Kumble's performance was special and was one of the all time great spells.

 

[zaremba]

Only for the tenth wicket were others trying to bowl wide of the stump.

I didn't say otherwise.

I am pretty sure this happened with Laker also.

I don't think so. See the Alan Oakman quotation I set out in my previous post, which basically fits in with all the other accounts I've read.

If anyone who was involved or who witnessed it has ever written anything to suggest that Tony Lock or the other England bowlers were trying not to take wickets, I'd be (genuinely) grateful if you could point me towards it.

 

[zaremba]

An India Pakistan test in 1999 would rank much higher than any ashes test and the pressures involved can't be imagined by anyone other than those from subcontinent. Wether you take it or not. Kumble's performance was special and was one of the all time great spells.

Yeah, let me make it clear that I'm not trying to belittle Kumble's spell, or the pressure of an India-Pakistan Test in 1999. And it was obviously a great spell.

But the clean sweep of all 10 wickets feels a tiny bit manufactured given that his fellow bowler was trying not to take the last wicket.

And Laker had taken 9 in the first innings too...

 

[fredfertang]

It must affect the concentration of a bowler if the bloke at the other end has 9 wickets particularly when the match situation is straightforward – had it been anyone other than Tony Lock then I’m sure Laker would have benefitted from a bit of help but he certainly didn’t – in the mid 60’s my Dad played in a benefit match where Lock was guesting – he was still livid about Old Trafford '56 a decade and refused to discuss it in the bar afterwards

 

[oitoitoi]

An India Pakistan test in 1999 would rank much higher than any ashes test and the pressures involved can't be imagined by anyone other than those from subcontinent. Wether you take it or not. Kumble's performance was special and was one of the all time great spells.

Laker's performance would still rank higher by a distance in my book, but indeed there is no pressure like an India Pakistan match. It's just in a completely different league to any other sporting rivalry because of it's animosity (though it's calmed a bit in recent years) and the numbers of people involved. The Ashes is a great rivalry, but for such a big rivalry there's a suprising amount of chumminess between the sides. You never really see an Indian and Pakistani player chatting or joking on the field, though a few have become friends off the field, notably younis khan and dravid (dravid actually coached him a bit), wasim akram was always a bit too friendly with all things indian for the pakistani public's liking too.

Also it was only for a few overs at the end that srinath I believe was bowling wide of the stumps, even then I reckon they should have risked it as kumble was far more likely to take the wicket.

 

[rivera213]

Come on Steve, you're better than that.

I know, that grammar was shocking- even for me!

Which raises the obvious question, why was Srinath even bowling when 9 wickets were down, if he had no chance of taking a wicket?

Oh, I thought you meant the other Indian bowlers weren't trying to take wickets in general (once Kumble was on 7 or so), not only for the final wicket.

I don't really mind having a "defensive" bowler at 1 end if a guy is on 9 at the other (and on a hat-trick remember), bowling like a genius and the match victory was no way in doubt (I think Pakistan ended up losing by over 200 runs with Wasim and Waqar the last partnership so the result was pretty much a given).

Harbhajan was definitely trying to take wickets throughout the game and he looked the only other Indian bowler likely to do so. Remember, Pakistan had a century opening partnership so there was opportunity.

Ironically, Srinath could've got a wicket with the only delivery aimed straight when Waqar Younis momentarily thought he was Viv Richards and connected with the bat more like Keith Richards.

I don't mind a bit of sentimentality as long as the result is safe and it was 99.999% safe.

Laker's performance would still rank higher by a distance in my book, but indeed there is no pressure like an India Pakistan match. It's just in a completely different league to any other sporting rivalry because of it's animosity (though it's calmed a bit in recent years) and the numbers of people involved. The Ashes is a great rivalry, but for such a big rivalry there's a suprising amount of chumminess between the sides. You never really see an Indian and Pakistani player chatting or joking on the field, though a few have become friends off the field, notably younis khan and dravid (dravid actually coached him a bit), wasim akram was always a bit too friendly with all things indian for the pakistani public's liking too.

Agree with that.

Being in London, we have a number of Indian and Pakistani people and they genuinely don't like each other for the most part. Those who share a religion, in my experience which is limited compared to back in Asia obviously, seem to get on more. Muslims particularly, though that may just be in London.

I disagree with the chummy part in regards to the Ashes, while it's on, we completely hate each other. Makes me want to storm to their capital (Earl's Court) and start a riot. Ha ha. J/K.

Also it was only for a few overs at the end that srinath I believe was bowling wide of the stumps, even then I reckon they should have risked it as kumble was far more likely to take the wicket.

It was only really 1 tbh. Kumble was on a hat trick (and obviously the 10 for) and Srinath would've been killed in Bangalore if he took the last wicket, even being a fellow Karnatikan. Lol

 

[Cruxdude]

Yeah, let me make it clear that I'm not trying to belittle Kumble's spell, or the pressure of an India-Pakistan Test in 1999. And it was obviously a great spell.

But the clean sweep of all 10 wickets feels a tiny bit manufactured given that his fellow bowler was trying not to take the last wicket.

And Laker had taken 9 in the first innings too...

I am not talking ill of Laker, what I meant was his performance doesn't belittle Kumble's just like Bradman's doesn't belittle Tendulkar and Lara.

 

[iamdavid]

In a decade of watching cricket, Laxman's 281 is the best i've seen.

 

[zaremba]

I know, that grammar was shocking- even for me!

Nah nothing to do with the grammar, more the fact that you thought it was a good idea to write in the following terms...

by all means, continue to speak from a position of complete ****ing ignorance

.... while later in the very same post conceding that I was right and you were wrong about the very point I'd been making....

I stand corrected

 

[Richard]

Haha. Yo whatever you meant the basis of the argument is crap. I know that brick walll - which is your head, wont alter position. So you can take this belief along with the others to the grave shotta...

Well doon.

 

[Richard]

Yep. I'm not criticising Azhar here, or Kumble, or Srinath. It's just that, if true (and I've no desire to enter into another tedious epistemological quarrel with rivera on this), I can't help thinking it ever so slightly dulls a little of the gloss on Kumble's achievement.

I've never had the slightest doubt about the truth of it TBH (it was published in Wisden which is where I heard of it - can barely get a more reputable source) but nor has it remotely dulled my enthusiasm for Kumble's excellence. For me, Srinath (or anyone) even attempting to take the tenth wicket when Kumble had all nine would have been the ultimate in selfishness and lack of team feeling. The opportunity to take all ten is something virtually no bowler will ever have, and to attempt to deny him it would IMO be exceedingly churlish. Or, worse, plain vendettaful.

 

[Uppercut]

Laker's performance would still rank higher by a distance in my book, but indeed there is no pressure like an India Pakistan match. It's just in a completely different league to any other sporting rivalry because of it's animosity (though it's calmed a bit in recent years) and the numbers of people involved. The Ashes is a great rivalry, but for such a big rivalry there's a suprising amount of chumminess between the sides. You never really see an Indian and Pakistani player chatting or joking on the field, though a few have become friends off the field, notably younis khan and dravid (dravid actually coached him a bit), wasim akram was always a bit too friendly with all things indian for the pakistani public's liking too.

Also it was only for a few overs at the end that srinath I believe was bowling wide of the stumps, even then I reckon they should have risked it as kumble was far more likely to take the wicket.

"Pressure" is quite an abstract concept. Everyone reacts differently in different situations. Herschelle Gibbs famously failed to deal mentally with Australian sledging but when faced with the biggest ODI total of all time he came up with one of the great ODI innings of all time. I suspect I would be the other way around.

It's an awkward concept at the best of times, and i don't think it can be used when comparing Laker's match to Kumble's. It's impossible to know whether the support of a huge Delhi crowd would have overwhelmed another man, inspired him, or (as I'd be inclined to believe) had no effect.

Judging the achievements purely on their cricketing merits, i'll have to concur that Laker's takes some beating.

 

[Cruxdude]

"Pressure" is quite an abstract concept. Everyone reacts differently in different situations. Herschelle Gibbs famously failed to deal mentally with Australian sledging but when faced with the biggest ODI total of all time he came up with one of the great ODI innings of all time. I suspect I would be the other way around.

It's an awkward concept at the best of times, and i don't think it can be used when comparing Laker's match to Kumble's. It's impossible to know whether the support of a huge Delhi crowd would have overwhelmed another man, inspired him, or (as I'd be inclined to believe) had no effect.

Judging the achievements purely on their cricketing merits, i'll have to concur that Laker's takes some beating.

While agreeing that Laker's record is the Bowler's equivalent of 99.94, I would again say no one other than an Indian or a Pakistani would understand the pressure of an Indo-Pak match. Losing is like national shame. It is tough explaining to people from other countries. Heroes rise against pressure while the rest sink with it.

India had lost the first test of the series and Pakistan was like 101/0 n the 4th innings. f you remember the test after this one was in Kolkatta was a great one which India lost narrowly. The crowd started rioting and fires were lit in th stands. This is the pressure under which Ind - Pak matches were played.

After Laker's performance I would call this the greatest.

 

[vic_orthdox]

"Pressure" is quite an abstract concept. Everyone reacts differently in different situations. Herschelle Gibbs famously failed to deal mentally with Australian sledging but when faced with the biggest ODI total of all time he came up with one of the great ODI innings of all time. I suspect I would be the other way around.

It's an awkward concept at the best of times, and i don't think it can be used when comparing Laker's match to Kumble's. It's impossible to know whether the support of a huge Delhi crowd would have overwhelmed another man, inspired him, or (as I'd be inclined to believe) had no effect.

Judging the achievements purely on their cricketing merits, i'll have to concur that Laker's takes some beating.

Be fair to argue that there's not really that much pressure to go out there when you're chasing the biggest total of all time. No-one's really expecting you to win, there's nothing to lose from that situation. You've already lost in the eyes of most!

Still an extraordinary innings, mind you.

 

[honestbharani]

In a decade of watching cricket, Laxman's 281 is the best i've seen.

I still rate Lara's 153* a smidgen ahead.. Having watched both games live...

 

[Xuhaib]

I still rate Lara's 153* a smidgen ahead.. Having watched both games live...

awta but am I the only one that rates Sachin 136 at Chennai better then both?

 

[Xuhaib]

Agree with that.

Being in London, we have a number of Indian and Pakistani people and they genuinely don't like each other for the most part. Those who share a religion, in my experience which is limited compared to back in Asia obviously, seem to get on more. Muslims particularly, though that may just be in London.

Only the chavs among the indo-pak community otherwise among the normal lot the realtionship is pretty easy.

 

[Uppercut]

While agreeing that Laker's record is the Bowler's equivalent of 99.94, I would again say no one other than an Indian or a Pakistani would understand the pressure of an Indo-Pak match. Losing is like national shame. It is tough explaining to people from other countries. Heroes rise against pressure while the rest sink with it.

India had lost the first test of the series and Pakistan was like 101/0 n the 4th innings. f you remember the test after this one was in Kolkatta was a great one which India lost narrowly. The crowd started rioting and fires were lit in th stands. This is the pressure under which Ind - Pak matches were played.

After Laker's performance I would call this the greatest.

Hard to argue with the conclusion, but the point was just that pressure is subjective. It really does depend on the player whether it's easier to play when your life depends on it or more difficult. To give an example, Kevin Pietersen appears to have real motivational problems when noone's watching, but does that mean an innings against New Zealand in front of three sheep and an old man has more merit than one in front of a screaming MCG crowd? KP would find the latter much easier. Does that make it a lesser achievement?

Or, look at Salman Butt. Quite obviously finds it much easier to play against India than he does against anyone else. Would a century scored against England- which he would evidently find more difficult- be a bigger achievement?

Pressure is a tricky concept to factor in when you're considering innings.

 

[Uppercut]

Be fair to argue that there's not really that much pressure to go out there when you're chasing the biggest total of all time. No-one's really expecting you to win, there's nothing to lose from that situation. You've already lost in the eyes of most!

Still an extraordinary innings, mind you.

Yeah, you could say that. The truth is, noone really knows how Herschelle reacted mentally to the situation, which reinforces the point that "pressure" is hard to define when you're judging a performance based on it.

 

[slowfinger]

Come on a very recent 319 by Sehwag IMO was very entertaining and brilliantly played.