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2009 Sides vs 2005 Sides

aussie

Hall of Fame Member
Not as a wicketkeeper he isn't. Jones wasn't very good at that point (he was by the 2005/06 winter) but he was still better than Prior is currently (and always has been).
I dont know anything about that. Jones was fairly solid with the gloves from WI 04 to SA 04/05, but was never seen as a supreme glovesman. But then as the Ashes began he went downhill.

Both Prior & Jones are equal in glovework.
 

GIMH

Norwood's on Fire
Yeah but the thread asks about the reputation going into the series. TBF Jones had loads of critics but I do think Prior is regarded as a worse keeper now than Jones was this time four years ago - Prior is clearly good enough to play as a specialist bat though. Give Colly the gloves :ph34r:
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
I dont know anything about that. Jones was fairly solid with the gloves from WI 04 to SA 04/05, but was never seen as a supreme glovesman. But then as the Ashes began he went downhill.

Both Prior & Jones are equal in glovework.
:huh: Jones was always moderate to poor with the gloves from the home series against WI (he started OK) to the 2005 Ashes. He got much better in 2005/06 after long hard work with Jack Russell and by the end of his career was very competent.

Prior on the other hand has simply been roundly poor. He's had some games where he's not made any crucial mistakes, but there's always been an error just around the corner. And Alec Stewart's worked every bit as hard on him as Russell did on Jones and it's made precious little difference. No amount of hard work seems to be able to turn Prior from poor to decent; it did for Jones.
 

aussie

Hall of Fame Member
:huh: Jones was always moderate to poor with the gloves from the home series against WI (he started OK) to the 2005 Ashes. He got much better in 2005/06 after long hard work with Jack Russell and by the end of his career was very competent.
I can't remember any major blunder from WI 04 to Bang 05 really. A few fumbles i guess - if he feel free to remind me.

I don't think he was that fantastic from PAK 05/06 to the end of his career. He just got back to his post 05 Ashes level.

Prior on the other hand has simply been roundly poor. He's had some games where he's not made any crucial mistakes, but there's always been an error just around the corner. And Alec Stewart's worked every bit as hard on him as Russell did on Jones and it's made precious little difference. No amount of hard work seems to be able to turn Prior from poor to decent; it did for Jones.
Haaaaa. Prior was poor from WI 07 to SRI 07 yea, missing some big catches. But since he came back his technique although still suspect, he hasn't missed anything. Its pretty much on par with Jones, so i don't know how you can say Prior has been roundly poor - but so how manage to hype Jones.
 

Prince EWS

Global Moderator
Jones was/is definitely a better wicket keeper than Prior IMO. He was never a great gloveman or even what I'd call a "good" gloveman by Test standards - the fact that he was a batsman/wicket-keeper rather than a wicket-keeper/batsman and still only averaged 23 in Tests with the bat says it all - but he was certainly better than Prior.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
I can't remember any major blunder from WI 04 to Bang 05 really. A few fumbles i guess - if he feel free to remind me.

I don't think he was that fantastic from PAK 05/06 to the end of his career. He just got back to his post 05 Ashes level.
He was far better from the series in Pakistan onwards than he'd ever been before. I can't recall any specific fumbles and drops from 2004 or 2004/05 - mainly because there were so many that they didn't become specific.
Haaaaa. Prior was poor from WI 07 to SRI 07 yea, missing some big catches. But since he came back his technique although still suspect, he hasn't missed anything.
Except in that one game at Queen's Park Oval, where he missed about half the stuff that came his way. He hasn't missed any big catches - yet - but he's still fumbled all sorts of simple takes and is certain to miss a big chance somewhere along the way, possibly pretty soon, if he plays for long enough.
Its pretty much on par with Jones, so i don't know how you can say Prior has been roundly poor - but so how manage to hype Jones.
I'm not "hyping" Jones, merely saying that he was better than Prior (and far better from 2005/06 onwards).
 

aussie

Hall of Fame Member
Except in that one game at Queen's Park Oval, where he missed about half the stuff that came his way. He hasn't missed any big catches - yet - but he's still fumbled all sorts of simple takes and is certain to miss a big chance somewhere along the way, possibly pretty soon, if he plays for long enough.


Mainly due to Amjad Khan, plus Ramdin had a difficult time also. Plus no i don't remember him fumbling a great deal either since his return - expect for missing a straight delivery the other day in the 2nd test test and maybe missing a few leg-side takes, which shows as a technitian he is still average.

But Prior has clearly improved from a very poor 2007 summer & winter.

Note: I'm up for Prior playing as a batsman & Foster keeping in the Ashes though..



I'm not "hyping" Jones, merely saying that he was better than Prior (and far better from 2005/06 onwards).
Slightly better, but overall their glovework is pretty evenl.

Jones was decent in PAK & IND (excelling in the Mumbai miracle) & was clearly improved down under 06/07. But as i said before it was on the pre 05 Ashes level.
 

GIMH

Norwood's on Fire
With geraint it seemed that he only had a certain allowance, as his keeping got better he became incapable with the bat
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
His batting only went from poor to diabolical though.

Geraint essentially started well with bat and gloves (first 4 games), became poor with gloves and poor with bat (WI '04 to Aus '05), then diabolical with bat and pretty decent with gloves (Pak '05/06 to Aus '06/07).

As I've said a good few times though, Geraint as a batsman was never that good - he just happened to have his only good season just when Alec Stewart was about to retire, which was fortunate timing and no more. Or maybe unfortunate, because Geraint's Test career caused a good deal of heartache to a good deal of people, and if he'd never played at all it might've been so much better.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
Mainly due to Amjad Khan, plus Ramdin had a difficult time also. Plus no i don't remember him fumbling a great deal either since his return - expect for missing a straight delivery the other day in the 2nd test test and maybe missing a few leg-side takes, which shows as a technitian he is still average.

But Prior has clearly improved from a very poor 2007 summer & winter.
I don't think he has, he's exactly the same now as then. He generally looks poor but does OK in 4-5 games then has 1 rank shocker where he misses about as much as he takes (these have so far numbered The Oval 2007, SSC 2007/08 and QPO 2009). I'd imagine he's due another sometime in The Ashes and it fills me with dread.
 

stephen

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
On paper I would say that this English side looks as good as the side that played in '05. Remember the 2005 abberation was from numerous things, but primarily it was due to the English working really well together as a team and all hitting their respective peaks (Simon Jones in particular deserves a lot of the credit for the victory), while Australia went into the series without proper preparation, arrogant attitudes and underperformed, to a man with the exception of Warne and McGrath.

On paper this is a much closer contest than what '05 was supposed to be. Australia's bowling attack is inexperienced and underdone and the batting attack is nowhere near as strong as in '05. At least on paper.

Yet one gets the feeling that Australia's preparation this time around has been much better while the English have been infighting and working poorly as a team.

I mean there is no reason why England could not beat Australia in this series, but there equally is no reason to believe that they will.

Strauss is class, Cook has matured and is a decent opener, Bopara has a decent record at test level, Pieterson is a star, Collingwood is quality and Flintoff is class. Prior is a decent bat (though poor keeper). Swann and Panesar both have a lot of potential and ability, though Panesar really should be doing better by now. Anderson is much better than he was in years past (and as I believed he would back in 06/07, has developed into a quality bowler). Broad has a lot of potential and is coming into the Ashes with some decent form and Onions has had a good start.

There is no reason why this team could not win, especially if you look at the Aussies at the moment.

Hughes is relatively untested, Katich is in some form but doesn't tend to go on and make big scores which really hurt the opposition. Ponting looks like he's dropped from his lofty heights back down to the level of "mere mortal", Hussey is in terrible test form. Clarke is better than he was in '05 and is looking like the most reliable middle order bat Australia has. North is relatively untested. Haddin is quite good. Johnson is in incredible form. Siddle is fairly inexperienced but is in good form. Lee and Clark are both coming off injury. Hauritz is Australias best spin option but is far more suited to ODI cricket.

By comparison to what *should* have happened on paper in '05, the current English team has a better chance of winning. I don't expect that to happen but I would not be surprised to see a 2-1 or 3-1 result to Australia, with the 1 being in a live test.
 

Uppercut

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I agree with you, although you've been a little questionable with your summary (Hughes is relatively untested but Cook has matured into a decent opener? Mate, Hughes>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Cook). I don't really see the need for all the English ultra-pessimism. They put up a decent fight against SA last year, and their side has really improved since then for my money.
 

stephen

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
I agree with you, although you've been a little questionable with your summary (Hughes is relatively untested but Cook has matured into a decent opener? Mate, Hughes>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Cook). I don't really see the need for all the English ultra-pessimism. They put up a decent fight against SA last year, and their side has really improved since then for my money.
My point wasn't that Cook is better than Hughes, I believe the opposite actually. My point was that he's far more proven than Hughes at this stage.
 

Uppercut

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My point wasn't that Cook is better than Hughes, I believe the opposite actually. My point was that he's far more proven than Hughes at this stage.
Indeed- my point wasn't that you think Cook is better than Hughes, but that you had worded your post such that it said everything positive there was to say about Cook but everything negative about Hughes. Love how you couldn't find anything remotely bad to say about Midge Johnson though :p.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
On paper I would say that this English side looks as good as the side that played in '05. Remember the 2005 abberation was from numerous things, but primarily it was due to the English working really well together as a team and all hitting their respective peaks (Simon Jones in particular deserves a lot of the credit for the victory), while Australia went into the series without proper preparation, arrogant attitudes and underperformed, to a man with the exception of Warne and McGrath.
Langer?

Anyway I'd dispute that Hayden, Ponting, Martyn, Clarke, Katich and Gilchrist underperformed - they were just worked-out (Hayden, Clarke, Gilchrist) or stripped down from sensational to good (Ponting) or good to poor (Martyn). The only Aussie who really underperformed badly in 2005 for my money was Gillespie, and it was crucial. And truth be told the only time McGrath bowled well in the series was the opening afternoon - though that spell where he knocked-over Trescothick, Strauss, Vaughan, Bell and Flintoff in about 6 overs was as sensational a spell as you'll see as long as you live.
 

stephen

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Langer?

Anyway I'd dispute that Hayden, Ponting, Martyn, Clarke, Katich and Gilchrist underperformed - they were just worked-out (Hayden, Clarke, Gilchrist) or stripped down from sensational to good (Ponting) or good to poor (Martyn). The only Aussie who really underperformed badly in 2005 for my money was Gillespie, and it was crucial. And truth be told the only time McGrath bowled well in the series was the opening afternoon - though that spell where he knocked-over Trescothick, Strauss, Vaughan, Bell and Flintoff in about 6 overs was as sensational a spell as you'll see as long as you live.
Langer underperformed by his standards.

Interesting you say that Hayden was worked out. He was coming off a good twelve months of bad form in test matches at the time, which would have been career ending if it was not for the hundred in the final test.

Martyn was the unlucky player of the series. He'd just had a huge year in international cricket and was dropped on the back of the Ashes alone, even though he'd been sawn off on no less than two occasions (really bad decisions too).

Clarke was a relatively new player at that stage, and had some technical weaknesses in his game which were exploited by more than England - remember he was dropped a series or two later.

It was a series in which so many factors combined to give such a memorable and enjoyable series of cricket - underperforming Australian stars, a huge sense of belief among the English team, career best performances from Flintoff, Simon Jones and Hoggard, some really horrible umpiring, wickets from no balls, sugary mints and misplaced cricket balls.

Remembering back, when McGrath slipped on the ball before Edgebaston everyone thought that he'd be out for months. It really was a miracle that he was fit to play by the third test (though he had an elbow problem in the forth). There's no way he was near full fitness for the two tests he did play in after the accident. But even with his injury he was clearly the second best performing Australian bowler.

Lee, Kasper and Dizzy were all attrocious, which was really surprising as Lee was looking white hot in other forms of the game (and heck, he was even looking good for some of the Ashes), Kasper had been in great form and Dizzy had been a champion up until then. It's a real shame that Dizzy will be most remembered for his woeful Ashes and then his 201* against Bangladesh. A bowler who takes over 250 wickets at 26 really deserves a better sendoff than what he got.

There is no way that Australia were functioning well as individuals or a team, with the exception of Warne and McGrath. Langer was ok (but nowhere near his best) as was Ponting, but the rest drastically underperformed, while England overacheived. And in the end we had a series that was decided on the last day of the last test.

I have to remember to buy my copy of the dvd.
 
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