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Taking a punt

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
& yet no one demurred from my suggestion. Fancy that, eh?
No, there's all sorts of things that no-one demurs from, everywhere. Doesn't mean they go from opinion to fact just because no-one actually puts a contradiction into words.
Beyond that and we're really into the realms of what actually consistutes "knowledge" and how it's possible to know anything. The idea that selecting a player who then performs is an error is so patently counter-intuitive I think one can fairly say it is preposterous without too much fear of contradiction. One could fairly argue that the reasoning behind the selection may be flawed, but an error? No. I can't imagine anyone other than you claiming it to be.
If the reasoning behind something (be it a selection or any other decision in any form of anything) is not sound, it's an error. Simple as.
 

Uppercut

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If the reasoning behind something (be it a selection or any other decision in any form of anything) is not sound, it's an error. Simple as.
Haha nah. You can make an error despite doing absolutely nothing wrong, and do things correctly more through luck than judgement.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
Haha nah. You can make an error despite doing absolutely nothing wrong, and do things correctly more through luck than judgement.
I disagree. An error is something where the person who makes the error is at fault, in my book. And if dictionary definitions prove otherwise, I'll just use a different term where the dictionary definition fits.
 

BoyBrumby

Englishman
If the reasoning behind something (be it a selection or any other decision in any form of anything) is not sound, it's an error. Simple as.
No, not "simple as". You have a fundamental misunderstanding of what "error" means. An "error" is determined by outcome not hypothesis; hence "trial and error", not "error and error".
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
Or, even a stopped clock tells the right time twice a day.
That's different though. A clock cannot be at fault - it's an inanimate object. There are two problems: one, that the clock has stopped; two, that (in 1438 of the 1440 minutes of the day anyway) the clock is giving a misleading time.

The fault lies with the person who has not got rid of the old battery and put a new one in - and the error has been made by not doing.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
No, not "simple as". You have a fundamental misunderstanding of what "error" means. An "error" is determined by outcome not hypothesis; hence "trial and error", not "error and error".
As I say - if error isn't the 100% appropriate word, there'll be another out there that is. "Mistake", or whatever.
 

Prince EWS

Global Moderator
An "error" is determined by outcome not hypothesis; hence "trial and error", not "error and error".
:laugh:

So true.

I remember having a similar debate with Richard when he told me my World Cup prediction of Ireland beating Pakistan was a poor one... after the game. The bet I made on the game was also poor apparently, not unlike bet365 the next time I made a withdrawal.
 

Top_Cat

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:laugh:

So true.

I remember having a similar debate with Richard when he told me my World Cup prediction of Ireland beating Pakistan was a poor one... after the game. The bet I made on the game was also poor apparently, not unlike bet365 the next time I made a withdrawal.
The question isn't whether anyone thinks it's an error. The question is why the hell you should give a crap what anyone thinks!
 

Uppercut

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:laugh:

So true.

I remember having a similar debate with Richard when he told me my World Cup prediction of Ireland beating Pakistan was a poor one... after the game. The bet I made on the game was also poor apparently, not unlike bet365 the next time I made a withdrawal.
Had the same argument when i said India had a pretty good chance of chasing down 400 against England in November on the eve of the fifth day. The fact that they actually did in the end didn't seem to affect his belief that no right-minded cricket fan would have expected it.

You'd wonder why he even watches cricket. What actually happens is secondary to what he thinks was most likely to happen.
 

zaremba

Cricketer Of The Year
That's different though. A clock cannot be at fault - it's an inanimate object. There are two problems: one, that the clock has stopped; two, that (in 1438 of the 1440 minutes of the day anyway) the clock is giving a misleading time.
But we're not talking about "fault", we're talking about error. And both of the "problems" you've identified misses the point, which is that the stopped clock tells the right time twice a day.

If it's 1 o'clock and the clock's hands point to 1 o'clock, is that an error?
 

Goughy

Hall of Fame Member
If it's 1 o'clock and the clock's hands point to 1 o'clock, is that an error?
Knowing a clock can be right even if it is broken isnt the best way to tell the time. Its an error to look at a broken clock and assume it is 1 o'clock even if there is a chance of it being correct. Most likely it isnt accurate.
 

zaremba

Cricketer Of The Year
Knowing a clock can be right even if it is broken isnt the best way to tell the time. Its an error to look at a broken clock and assume it is 1 o'clock even if there is a chance of it being correct. Most likely it isnt accurate.
I'm not asking whether it's an error to trust the clock, merely whether the clock itself is in error
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
You'd wonder why he even watches cricket. What actually happens is secondary to what he thinks was most likely to happen.
Not really. The fact that the unlikely can indeed happen is part of what makes cricket interesting. What's annoying is when people pretend that the unlikely was in fact likely, because it happened.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
But we're not talking about "fault", we're talking about error. And both of the "problems" you've identified misses the point, which is that the stopped clock tells the right time twice a day.

If it's 1 o'clock and the clock's hands point to 1 o'clock, is that an error?
As I say - it's possible that error isn't an appropriate word. I'm talking about a case where someone has got something wrong - thus, are at fault - and should still be recognised to have gotten something wrong even if this getting-wrong ended-up paying dividends.

If a clock has stopped someone has gotten something wrong, by not replacing the battery - even though there will be times (2 minutes per day) where this doesn't actually cause any inaccuracy (any "error", you might say). Regardless of this, someone is at fault, same way selectors are still at fault if they make a selectorial decision not based on the soundest possible reasoning.
 
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Son Of Coco

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
:laugh:

This is a classic argument!

So if a selector is at fault when he makes a decision you consider to be not based on the soundest possible judgement then he's also brilliant when that selection pays off.

Selectors are there to pick potential, not just the guys who have the stats behind them in first class cricket. Otherwise England would have been full of Mark Ramprakashes and struggled to win a test in the late 90's and early 00's...:ph34r:

The fact selectors see something in players like Holding and McGrath and pick them before they are considered ready is testimony to their foresight, not a mistake.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
It isn't. It's testimony to their inability to differentiate between ability and potential. Selectors are there to pick the best possible team at the time the game's on, not pick the best team for 2 years' time.

And England between 1991 and 1995/96 had many worse batsmen than Mark Ramprakash play Test cricket. Many of them. And in all honesty, Ramprakash (again) would've been a better selection than many of them.

And of course Ramprakash from 1997 to 2001 wasn't that bad.
 

zaremba

Cricketer Of The Year
It isn't. It's testimony to their inability to differentiate between ability and potential. Selectors are there to pick the best possible team at the time the game's on, not pick the best team for 2 years' time.
I can accept that argument in small doses only.

In reality there are times when you need to select your best and most proven players. That means an Ashes series and a World Cup. At other times, selectors should feel more free to experiment.

Test cricket is a unique environment and it takes some getting used to - and all Test players do a fair amount of learning on the job.

Some players will thrive (and outperform their FC records) while others will not make it at all. Performances in first class cricket do not allow you to predict accurately who will and who won't succeed in Test cricket.

Therefore you need to blood players in the knowledge that they may, at least initially, fail, so as to find out who's up to the job, and so as to give them experience of Test cricket in order that they can develop into the best possible Test player who will stay at the top for the longest possible time.
 

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