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Saeed Ajmal reported for chucking

Manee

Cricketer Of The Year
Boycott and Ramiz Raja have called for the 15 degrees to be increased so that the Doosra is always legal.
Disagree. The 15 degree rule wasn't arbitrary - according to biomechanists, that's the minimum required to discern it with the naked eye with any sort of regularity. I don't think you should just increase it to fit a particular type of delivery - especially as its not a standard classical delivery - in.
AWTA fully.
This state of limbo over the legality of the 'doosra' is an extreme blight on the game, though. Every doosra has an inch of doubt toward it and it is a sorry representation of the 'chucking' laws. I would be interested to see a study into the 'straightening' involved in the doosra from the well known exponents of such. From there a conclusion can be drawn.
 

BoyBrumby

Englishman
Maybe it's time for a moratorium on the doosra as a delivery? It seems that pretty much anyone who bowls it either gets extremely close to or actually exceeds the tolerance limits.

Anyone know of any clips of Amjal bowling btw? Had quick scan on YouToob but couldn't find anything.
 

silentstriker

The Wheel is Forever
Yes, doosra seems to be the one closest to, if not actually breaking, the laws. We'll see how Ajmal's deliveries stack up when he undergoes the tests.

I don't think you can ban a delivery though - it seems totally out of place. Especially if a guy like Mendis can bowl it without breaking the laws (obviously, he isn't a normal fingerspinner). But someone may find a way. Again, let's see if he actually chucks it though. It may be much ado about nothing.
 

BoyBrumby

Englishman
Yes, doosra seems to be the one closest to, if not actually breaking, the laws. We'll see how Ajmal's deliveries stack up when he undergoes the tests.

I don't think you can ban a delivery though - it seems totally out of place. Especially if a guy like Mendis can bowl it without breaking the laws (obviously, he isn't a normal fingerspinner). But someone may find a way. Again, let's see if he actually chucks it though. It may be much ado about nothing.
Haven't really seen anything of Mendis, but I was under the impression that his delivery that turns like a leg-break was delivered like Iverson used to, using his middle finger and thumb, rather than the normal offie's doosra?
 

silentstriker

The Wheel is Forever
Haven't really seen anything of Mendis, but I was under the impression that his delivery that turns like a leg-break was delivered like Iverson used to, using his middle finger and thumb, rather than the normal offie's doosra?
Yes. So are you going to ban a specific technique? What if someone has a slight variation on it? It's too messy. Having the rule by degree is best - it's measurable and objective.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
There is absolutely no way you can ban a certain delivery. I've said it before - the Doosra is a result of what happens at the wrist - it isn't possible for what happens at the wrist to force something to happen at the elbow. If a bowler bowls with an elbow brace on they'll still be able to bowl a Doosra, even if it takes some getting used to.
 

Son Of Coco

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
No, he's not. He's one of those to have an action which looks clean to the naked-eye.

Well, they might think they do, but in reality they only have a fair idea of whether a bowler's action looks dodgy or not. Same way, well... anyone else with a pair of eyes and an understanding of the game does.

Experienced player or not.

Well, no...now we have the new rules it doesn't make much sense to be constantly judging a player under the old rules.

I'd be very surprised if a player whose action looks clean ever ends up having a greater bend in his elbow than one who looks very ordinary.
 

Son Of Coco

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Boycott and Ramiz Raja have called for the 15 degrees to be increased so that the Doosra is always legal.
Awful idea...what do we then increase it to when they want to make the next variation after the doosra legal? Put simply, if you can't bowl it and stay inside the rules, don't bowl it. But if it's a matter of a degree or so outside the limit who judges whether the player has crossed that line on the field? Obviously no one. So then the player is reported again after bowling the doosra, goes back for testing, and the whole thing continues again.
 
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chaminda_00

Hall of Fame Member
It should be noted that no bowlers has been tested over 15 degrees for the doosra. Most spinners who have bends in their arm, have higher flexion for their off spinner then doorsa. It just one looks worse visually, due to nature of the action. Even Shoaib Malik and the Bangladesh spinner (not Razzaq the other one) were just over 10 degrees under the old rules, but were under 15 degrees. Effectively the rules have been already changed to allow the doosra and all those millions seamers that bowled quicker balls over 10 degrees.

Issue is that the naked eye will always precieve the doorsa as ball thrown due to how it looks through the naked eye. Guys like Amjal, Botha and co will always be getting their actions tested and re-tested. If the naked eye is the first point of call. It never ending cycle.
 
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Burgey

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It should be noted that no bowlers has been tested over 15 degrees for the doosra. Most spinners who have bends in their arm, have higher flexion for their off spinner then doorsa. It just one looks worse visually, due to nature of the action. Even Shoaib Malik and the Bangladesh spinner (not Razzaq the other one) were just over 10 degrees under the old rules, but were under 15 degrees. Effectively the rules have been already changed to allow the doosra and all those millions seamers that bowled quicker balls over 10 degrees.

Issue is that the naked eye will always precieve the doorsa as ball thrown due to how it looks through the naked eye. Guys like Amjal, Botha and co will always be getting their actions tested and re-tested. If the naked eye is the first point of call. It never ending cycle.
The problem with the system, though, isn't what happens at international or even FC level, where there are appropriate testing regimes in place. It's what happens at lower levels of senior cricket and in junior cricket. How does an umpire in the park call a bowler for throwing now with the change to the law?

And if they can't call the bowler, how does a club or an individual get access to regimes of testing when they play at a lower level?
 

duffer

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Issue is that the naked eye will always precieve the doorsa as ball thrown due to how it looks through the naked eye. Guys like Amjal, Botha and co will always be getting their actions tested and re-tested. If the naked eye is the first point of call. It never ending cycle.
Goes back to the question, if there was such a difference between a regular offie and the doosra why can't the batsmen pick it up?
 

chaminda_00

Hall of Fame Member
The problem with the system, though, isn't what happens at international or even FC level, where there are appropriate testing regimes in place. It's what happens at lower levels of senior cricket and in junior cricket. How does an umpire in the park call a bowler for throwing now with the change to the law?

And if they can't call the bowler, how does a club or an individual get access to regimes of testing when they play at a lower level?
Testing based on medical tests to prove bowlers have a natural flex in their actions. It is basic that the likes of Bird, Tait and Murali were cleared on during their youth careers and lower level cricket. Since the rules have come into play, the only bowler that has been banned were players like Razzaq who didn't have natural flex to begin with and just bowled with bent arms. There has always been procress in plans with the level of testing capable at each level.

Surely by now there is enough proof to show that if a player has a flex in his arm, then even if he bowls under 15 degrees it will still look to naked eye as a throw.
 

Burgey

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Testing based on medical tests to prove bowlers have a natural flex in their actions. It is basic that the likes of Bird, Tait and Murali were cleared on during their youth careers and lower level cricket. Since the rules have come into play, the only bowler that has been banned were players like Razzaq who didn't have natural flex to begin with and just bowled with bent arms. There has always been procress in plans with the level of testing capable at each level.

Surely by now there is enough proof to show that if a player has a flex in his arm, then even if he bowls under 15 degrees it will still look to naked eye as a throw.
Well, I'd like to walk up to some of the kids I coach and say "Go and tell mum and dad to get some medical tests done on you to prove you have a natural flex in your arm".

"OK Cam, but I think mum and dad wanted to spend the stimulus package money on a new TV. I think I just won't bowl/ play any more".

That's not practical at all. Maybe at higher grade levels, but what about people who play in the park (which is the vast majority in Australia at least)?

Do you never call anyone for throwing?
 

duffer

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
It seems as though they have looked at him before, so probably what I was saying about testing before they were internationals does happen anyway.
On the pre-game show they said he was tested after Lawson saw him at a development camp and he was found to have a flexation within ICC regulations. Personally think considering some of the other actions around I don't see the issue now that he has been through a round of testing.
Yep.
 

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