Johan Botha's action

[Furball]

Bowling recently :

YouTube - Johan Botha Chucking against Australia?

Hmm, that certainly doesn't look too tidy.

 

[oitoitoi]

TBH I'm still confused over the whole thing, so is it max 15 degrees flex at the point of release? It seems that a lot of spinners (and quicks) are basically chucking it and releasing the ball as late as possible.

 

[Richard]

It's 15 degrees of flex in the elbow in the time the shoulder rotates the arm between shoulder level and release point.

Not easy to pin down, but far easier to pin down than whether a bowler is bowling exactly in a match as he is in a lab.

 

[JBH001]

Blows away the theory that people just unite behind him because he's SL/Asian.

Dont know if I would go that far, T_C. In any case, it was not what I intended when I put up my previous posts above - which was that Murali's action has always looked dodgy live through his career, and that it has always been a source of debate and discussion. The point being, of course, that just because it looks bad live is not necessarily indicative of anything much at all, and this has been a constant through his playing days.

Certainly as Murali's career has gone on the nay sayers have dwindled and been muted (I implied as much when I said that opinion was divided early in Murali's career) largely, I would think, because of the number of hoops Murali has had to repeatedly jump through to show that he does bowl clean, despite appearances to the contrary. The point was that Murali was, afaik, not given a free pass, even in school cricket, rather that the benefit of the doubt was given him, opinion was sourced from other individuals (e.g. Yardley), and then later he was subject to tests when his action was questioned on the international stage. On repeated passing of tests, and good grounds to believe that there was something else going on, it became harder for the nay sayers to maintain that stance, and they either (as I said above) changed their minds or kept quiet. Goughy's rather condescending and mealy mouthed assumption that 'company men' kept quiet therefore misses the point.

This is not to say that the nay sayers dont exist in Sri Lanka. Very likely some still do and are less assertive than they were in the late 80s and into the mid 90s. Certainly late in the 90s and on into the present day this 'muteness' was, and still is, coloured by nationalistic and ethnic issues (based around Murali's status as a Tamil in a Singhalese team - ironically, when Murali first began it had almost been the reverse) and the fact that Murali has become very successful (I think its often forgotten that Murali was merely a decent bowler for the first third of his career). In this sense it is certainly now much harder for anyone to say ill of Murali's action. But this is to confuse silence with censorship when it may rather be that the nay sayers have little of worth to say in any case, and that their numbers have also dwindled due to the reasons mentioned above - primary being that people simply changed their minds because of the evidence and the science.

 

[Top_Cat]

TBH I'm still confused over the whole thing, so is it max 15 degrees flex at the point of release? It seems that a lot of spinners (and quicks) are basically chucking it and releasing the ball as late as possible.

When you throw a ball, your arm first flexes (angle between forearm and upper-arm beomes smaller) then extends (angle becomes wider) before release of the ball. The 15 degrees refers to the difference between the bowler's arm flexed and when it's fully extended. If, once the whole arm gets above shoulder height, the arm flexes then extends with an angular difference > 15 degrees, it's considered illegal.

 

[boris_denominat]

SHoaib? YouTube - Shoaib: Does he chuck?

 

[boris_denominat]

p.s. when does botha ever bowl a doosra?

 

[vic_orthdox]

It's not a big turning one, if anything it generally is just a big top-spinner. Never really goes big time, that I've seen. Can hold it's line a bit though, and that's all that you need it ito do.

 

[boris_denominat]

so all these bowlers are getting b& for bowling a less effective top spinner

 

[TT Boy]

p.s. when does botha ever bowl a doosra?

He was pulled up by the umpires over his doosra yet, Botha said he never bowled one at PE. Apparently, the doosra is not the problem (to CSA); it is the off-spinner which is too close for comfort.

 

[Son Of Coco]

The reason why is because the parameters of what constitutes a straight/bent arm changed. A big reason for this was greater knowledge in the area too. The addition of hyper-extension to the mix, for example.

Is hyper-extension part of the 'bending' of the elbow they take into account now when measuring the 15 degrees?

 

[Son Of Coco]

One thing, though, is that the 15 degree part is an ICC policy for international/FC cricketers. It's not mentioned at all in the laws. It's policed in the same way at lower levels as it always has been i.e. if you look dodgy, you'll still be no-balled. And I'd struggle to believe that because the ICC has enacted the 15 degree limit that suddenly we're seeing a rash of bowlers looking to bowl with bent elbow.

The thing is it's not though...I've seen a couple of guys who have vey dodgy actions. One I was told had been 'tested in Brisbane and cleared'. If they've started testing 2nd Grade bowlers actions I'd be very surprised. I actually mentioned something to the umpire about it and he trotted out the same line. Another guy in England was very poor. But no one seemed to be concerned in the slightest, apart from the other Aussie guy playing in the area. They've been offered a multitude of excuses and trot them out whenever they're questioned.

The idea that someone can be tested and cleared for life is ridiculous in my opinion. If you have an action that's borderline then surely there's a chance it'll degenerate on occasions and require constant monitoring.

 

[Son Of Coco]

Murali's arm doesn't straighten, he can't physically get his arm fully straight, and the illusion of him throwing is purely because of the 2D TV image. I've seen Murali bowling with a cast on his bowling arm, which stops him bending his arm and he was able to go through his complete repetoire of deliveries with no problem. What appears on TV to be a bending of the arm is infact the rotation of his shoulders, and the way he manipulates his double jointed wrists iirc. He does not chuck.

Your arm doesn't have to fully straighten to be a throw, it just has to bend more than 15 degrees from its starting point and then return to where it started. Unless your arm's bent to within 15 degrees of its limit permanently then it's possible to throw.

I'm not saying Murali throws by the way

 

[Richard]

so all these bowlers are getting b& for bowling a less effective top spinner

Not "all" of them, but it does indeed seem that several are.

Which seems, well, rather odd TSTL.

 

[gvenkat]

There are a few chuckers around who go on un-noticed, not all balls but certain balls..

Murali Chucks his doosras, Bhajji chucks some of his doosras as well... Botha is a chucker.. Lee, Tait and even Kyle Mills chuck certain balls... Not to forget the likes of Shoaib, and Shabbir... after that 15 degree flexing.. they made it easy for the chuckers..

 

[Maximus0723]

SHoaib? YouTube - Shoaib: Does he chuck?

Yes he does and he took steroids and possibly made others take it.

All his accomplishments are void. He is disgrace to cricket.

 

[gvenkat]

Yes he does and he took steroids and possibly made others take it.

All his accomplishments are void. He is disgrace to cricket.

Shoaib is a big time chucker.. Esp the ball he got Tendulkar out in the 2003 WC.. oh boy... A baseball pitcher would have been proud...

 

[Top_Cat]

Is hyper-extension part of the 'bending' of the elbow they take into account now when measuring the 15 degrees?

Nope. 15 degrees is measured from the furthest point of flexion to the furthest point of extension (i.e. straight arm). Anything beyond straight has been cleared because it's involuntary.

The thing is it's not though...I've seen a couple of guys who have vey dodgy actions. One I was told had been 'tested in Brisbane and cleared'. If they've started testing 2nd Grade bowlers actions I'd be very surprised. I actually mentioned something to the umpire about it and he trotted out the same line. Another guy in England was very poor. But no one seemed to be concerned in the slightest, apart from the other Aussie guy playing in the area. They've been offered a multitude of excuses and trot them out whenever they're questioned.

The idea that someone can be tested and cleared for life is ridiculous in my opinion. If you have an action that's borderline then surely there's a chance it'll degenerate on occasions and require constant monitoring.

The incident you describe sounds like the way it's always been in my experience. At lower to mid levels, you have to be extraordinarily blatant to be no-balled. Whether someone should or does get no-balled is a matter of opinion/measurement. Point is, it's policed using the same methods at lower levels. The only thing that's changed in the laws of the game is the formal definition of what a throw is (i.e. above the level of the shoulder, a throw is a flexing of the arm followed by an extension).

 

[dontcloseyoureyes]

Indeed. Though it must be said that when looking at still photos, one has to be careful
. For example, the photo on the right of Lee may be the same ball, or bowled with the same action as the one on the left, and it looks okay. Yet from t'other side it looks a shocker. Which is whyi suppose they need to do the testing.

I know I'm late, but fairly sure it's McGrath on the right and not Lee. Apologies if someone has already pointed this out.

 

[Migara]

There are a few chuckers around who go on un-noticed, not all balls but certain balls..

Murali Chucks his doosras, Bhajji chucks some of his doosras as well... Botha is a chucker.. Lee, Tait and even Kyle Mills chuck certain balls... Not to forget the likes of Shoaib, and Shabbir... after that 15 degree flexing.. they made it easy for the chuckers..

McGrath's and Pollocks effort balls, they extended it to 12º. Under the old law, they too have chucked