Ireland For Test Status?

[BoyBrumby]

A minor proliferation being Joyce, Rankin and Morgan? I actually don't know any names, but are you seriously telling me you think there weren't any who played for counties before Joyce in 2002?.

Plus Porterfield & Niall O'Brien, of course.

& I don't think anything, I don't know of any other Irishmen who had serious county careers before they got their own national team. That not to say there weren't any, but non-Englishmen tend to attract attention. Can think of Mortensen who was a stalwart for Derbyshire, Lefebvre who played for Glamorgan & Van Troost at Somerset, but no Irish spring to mind.

Somehow I can't shake the feeling you'd be rather more reluctant to label him ineducated than me.

Too much of an open goal even for me...

 

[Richard]

Plus Porterfield & Niall O'Brien, of course.

& I don't think anything, I don't know of any other Irishmen who had serious county careers before they got their own national team. That not to say there weren't any, but non-Englishmen tend to attract attention. Can think of Mortensen who was a stalwart for Derbyshire, Lefebvre who played for Glamorgan & Van Troost at Somerset, but no Irish spring to mind.

All continental Europeans; they would indeed spring immediately to mind above others. How about the Scots? Won't even mention the Welsh given they've had one of their own counties in the Championship since before Irish independence was recognised.

Too much of an open goal even for me...

I've said before that ineducated > uneducated. Though I should probably know better with you around given your habits of jumping on the slightest spelling\grammatical imperfection from me down the years.

 

[fredfertang]

I don't know of any other Irishmen who had serious county careers before they got their own national team. That not to say there weren't any

There must have been precious few - I think the only one with a remotely serious test career was FL Fane from Edwardian times and he never got picked for a full strength England

 

[BoyBrumby]

All continental Europeans; they would indeed spring immediately to mind above others. How about the Scots? Won't even mention the Welsh given they've had one of their own counties in the Championship since before Irish independence was recognised.

Mike Denness, Peter Such, Dougie Brown, Gavin Hamilton.... Plus young Kyle Coetzer at Durham & think John Blain has been given a county contract at Yorkshire now.

Not even sure what point you're arguing now, tbh. Surely the fact that a handful of Irish players are now all playing county cricket at the same time must be more than mere fluke?

 

[Magrat Garlick]

There must have been precious few - I think the only one with a remotely serious test career was FL Fane from Edwardian times and he never got picked for a full strength England

Sir Tim O'Brien played 5 Tests for England.

From the stats, looks as though he might as well not have bothered.

 

[BoyBrumby]

Sir Tim O'Brien played 5 Tests for England.

From the stats, looks as though he might as well not have bothered.

There were also Leland Hone & Joseph McMaster, but no Irishmen have turned out for our test team since Fane.

 

[fredfertang]

....except Martin McCague

 

[BoyBrumby]

....except Martin McCague

Hmm.

Well, technically he was born in County Antrim, I suppose. But he only had to open his gob to betray his real nationality. I remember a "Waltzing Mart-ilda" headline in the Mirror when he took 4 wickets in his first apperance.

'Bout as good as it got for him too.

 

[fredfertang]

indeed - he must have had a serious identity crisis

 

[stumpski]

Dermot Monteith had a season or two for Middlesex, but he was in his mid-30s and an established player for Ireland by then.

Incidentally, Ireland have been playing f-c three-day matches against Scotland since the 19th century, so in that sense they've been an 'international side' for a lot longer than many may realise.

 

[Richard]

Not even sure what point you're arguing now, tbh. Surely the fact that a handful of Irish players are now all playing county cricket at the same time must be more than mere fluke?

Not neccessarily. The point is that Scots and Irish won't neccessarily stick in the memory like Danes, Dutch etc. will.

It'd need someone very well-versed on county cricket's history to tell you whether it had or hadn't ever happened.

 

[Prince EWS]

Plus Porterfield & Niall O'Brien, of course.

Wilson and White each had county contracts at one stage too I think.

 

[Uppercut]

Wilson and White each had county contracts at one stage too I think.

Wilson still has a contract with Surrey. The only Methody oldboy to play FC cricket as far as i'm aware. If he seems a bit too dire to be playing county cricket it's because he's a wicket keeping all-rounder who we play as a specialist batsman.

 

[Uppercut]

Not really. Ireland only officially had their own international team starting in 1997; they were independent of the UK (ie, were no longer subservient of it) sometime in the 1960s UIMM.

Yorkshireman in international ignorance shocker.

 

[Prince EWS]

If he seems a bit too dire to be playing county cricket it's because he's a wicket keeping all-rounder who we play as a specialist batsman.

I'm fully aware of that.
The fact that you make him open the batting more than half the time probably doesn't help him much either.

I didn't know he actually still had a contract though; ITSTL.

 

[Uppercut]

I'm fully aware of that.
The fact that you make him open the batting more than half the time probably doesn't help him much either.

I didn't know he actually still had a contract though; ITSTL.

It's a funny one. He's not up there as a pinch-hitter because that's not how he plays, and there's nothing about him that suggests he's better equipped than anyone else to see off the new ball. Essentially, he opens because we don't have anyone else.

It's a bit strange, too, that he still has a county contract. His batting definitely doesn't justify it from what I've seen, and his keeping can't be that special because O'Brien has the gloves for us (although O'Brien is an excellent keeper, so that doesn't make Wilson bad.) I'd suspect Surrey signed him up as one for the future but he didn't progress as hoped and his contract just hasn't expired yet. But if they really thought he was useless they'd surely have brought in another reserve keeper considering their only other option is the 35-year-old Jonathan Batty.

There might just be something there that we haven't seen yet.

 

[chaminda_00]

Wilson not really a One Day player. It got a pretty good technique from what I've seen, which is why he opens the batting for Ireland. Also the same reason why he got a county contract. Once he develops more shots he could be decent batsmen at associate level. Not sure if he will be at county level, but it depends where they need him to bat I guess.

Good talent for mine.

 

[Ausage]

Thought I'd put in 2c.

Alot of talk about getting a tiered system going for tests. While in principle I think it's a great idea, it really needs to be thought through somewhat.

If we're going to start of with a strict tier 1 (only including the big 8) the promotion/relegation cycle would need to be very short. Having a 5 year cycle will send one relegated, currently international standard country to the cricketing wilderness. You could have a situation whereby NZ for example, could be traipsing exclusively around Kenya and Scotland for 5 years, while Bangladesh are considered part of the elite. Even if we shorten the cycle to 2 years, would we be better off having one of the big 8 flogging minnows for 2 years? I don't see anyone benefiting from that.

I don't think anyone would want to see Ryder and Southee develop their careers against that kind of opposition. What if England get relegated, do we make an exception with the Ashes or just can them? Would India even stand for that if they were relegated? (wouldn't happen tomorrow, but who knows in 10 years time)

Personally I think it's close to right the way it is now. The problem IMO is that there are currently 2 developing nations posing as test playing nations. Scrap that. Keep the big 8, and include an extra spot on the test tour for "developing" nations. Have the tier 2 teams (Bangladesh, Zimbabwe, Ireland, Scotland, Kenya, Afghanistan(?)) duke it out in a 2 year cycle for the spot. (The system could be replicated in a 3rd tier for teams below that to get a shot at moving up the test playing ladder) If the nation in the "developing" spot steps up and wins some games? Fantastic. Change it to a big 9, and keep a developing spot on a 10 team tour for the teams that have yet to improve.

Really couldn't answer the poll though. I'd love to see Ireland given a go, but Bangladesh have proved that just throwing a team in the deep end doesn't necessarily make them improve at the rate you would like.

 

[James_W]

Yorkshireman in international ignorance shocker.

Haha, yeah, that was a bit silly.

 

[vic_orthdox]

A minor proliferation being Joyce, Rankin and Morgan? I actually don't know any names, but are you seriously telling me you think there weren't any who played for counties before Joyce in 2002?

If so, I suggest you go and argue the case with Matthew Engel, who had this to say in the 2007 Wisden:
Somehow I can't shake the feeling you'd be rather more reluctant to label him ineducated than me.

Incidentally, the number of Irishmen in county cricket currently is roughly the same as the number of Australian \ South African cricketers who've played for Ireland of late (eg, Johnstone, Langford-Smith, Botha).

But the obvious counter-argument is that they want to play for England so that they can play at the highest level. It's like saying that, seeing as Clarrie Grimmett came and played for Australia, then this was setting a precedent that all NZers should have followed if they wanted to play Test cricket.