Winning in every country

[Uppercut]

It's quite difficult to compare sides across eras by the quality of their opposition. To what extent was Steve Waugh's opposition relatively ordinary, and to what extent was it Australia making them look ordinary?

 

[SJS]

Better opposition? I wouldn't exactly say that. Yeah, they probably faced a bowler from each team that was of higher quality then the bowlers from the modern era but everyone else that was surrouding them was crap.

Rarely did any of those bowling lineups bowl in tandom. They played in the same decade, but not together. The overall bowling lineups that the Australians have had to face have been equally as good, if not better. If I went by your methods of analysing the bowlers that Australia has faced then this would be it.

Sri Lanka
- Muttiah Muralitharan
- Chaminda Vaas
- Lasith Malinga

India
- Anil Kumble
- Harbhajan Singh
- Javagal Srinath
- Ifran Pathan
- Ishant Sharma
- Zaheer Khan

England
- Andy Caddick
- Darren Gough
- Matthew Hoggard
- Stephen Harmison
- Andrew Flintoff
- Simon Jones
- Monty Panesar

Pakistan
- Wasim Akram
- Waqar Younis
- Shoaib Akhtar
- Saqlain Mushtaq
- Danish Kaneria

South Africa
- Shaun Pollock
- Allan Donald
- Makhaya Ntini
- Andre Nel

New Zealand
- Chris Cairns
- Shane Bond
- Dion Nash
- Daniel Vettori

Not to mention that our modern bowlers would've been bowling to allot of batsman avergaing over 50 in Test Cricket.

By the way, which aide are you advocating hers, the Australian side under Waugh/Ponting or the West Indians under LLoyd/Richards ? This is getting a bit complicated

 

[SJS]

Well its the same bowling that takes 20 wickets to win games more often than almost any other time in history.

Flat tracks and batsmen averaging 50+ yet they still can get results. Many will tell you that is an indication of the quality of bowling too

Just playing devils advocate

I know

My point just was that you cant pick the high batting averages of an era to claim higher standards. Thats over simplification.

 

[andruid]

You have not won in uganda

 

[SJS]

Ok here are the sides that faced . . .

• Australia (Dec 72 to March 77)
• West Indies under Lloyd (April 77 to Dec 1984)
• West Indies Post Lloyd (Jan '85 to Dec '94)

I have divided the West Indies' era of domination into two parts - Under Lloyd and after Lloyd. This was required since over the 17 year period the opponents change and we get about 8-9 year periods which are manageable.

I have picked up the most representative XI and it includes the wicket keeper who played the most during the period, The bowlers who bowled the most overs and the batsmen who played the most innings.

Its interesting to note that all the three sides faced only five opponents. Sri Lanka had just come in at the end of the last period and I have left them out. There was no Zimbabwe, no Bangladesh and South Africa was banned for most of the time. This makes the task easier with no real minnows.

I have put in the tables below the Pakistan, England, India and Kiwi sides which faced Ian Chappell, Lloyd and Richards sides. For the fifth table I have put the West Indian side of the Chappell era and the two Aussie sides of the two Border era's. That completes the job.

Pakistan

[B]72-77             77-84        	85-94[/B]

Majid Khan      Muddassar Nazar Muddassar Nazar
Sadiq Mohammad	Mohsin Khan	Shoaib Ahmad
Zaheer Abbas	Zaheer Abbas	Salim Malik
Javed Miandad	Javed Miandad	Javed Miandad
Wasim Raja	Wasim Raja	Rameez Raja
Mushtaq Mohd	Imran Khan	Imran Khan
Imran Khan	Wasim Bari 	Salim Yousuf
Intikhab Alam	Sarfaraz Nawaz	Wasim Akram
Wasim Bari	Sikander Bakht	Waqar Yunis
Sarfaraz Nawaz	Abdul Qadir	Abdul Qadir
Saleem Altaf	Iqbal Qasim	Tausif Ahmed

• Very good balanced side in the first era with three all rounders making for a very varied attack.
• In the second era, the passing of two all rounder slightly weakens the lower batting.
• The third one has the great pace attack but the batting looks less impressive.

ENGLAND

[B]Era	72-77	77-84	85-94[/B]
1	Boycott	Boycott	Gooch
2	Edrich	Tavare	Atherton
3	Amiss	Gower	Gower
4	Greig	Gatting	Gatting
5	Fletchr	Fowler	Stewart
6	Denness	Botham	Botham
7	Knott	Taylor	DeFreitas
8	Snow	Willis	Malcolm
9	Old	Hendrik	Fraser 
10	Willis	Edmonds	Dilley
11	U'wood	Emburey	Tuffnell

• England hasn't been able to have a side to get close to the side of the late sixties and early seventies. It has perfect balance with Greig as all rounders, great openers and solid middle order, fabulous keeper, the last great English fast bowler and the last great English spinner.
• The side declines thereafter
• The batting improves in the third era.

INDIA

[B]Era	72-77        	77-84        	85-94[/B]
1	Gavaskar	Gavaskar	Srikkanth
2	Sardesai	Chetan Chauhan	Vengsarkar
3	Wadekar    	Jimmy Amarnath	Azhar
4	Vishwanath	Vishwanath	Manjrekar
5	Amarnath	Vengsarkar	Tendulkar
6	Engineer	Ravi Shastri	Ravi Shastri
7	Ghavri       	Syed Kirmani	More
8	Bishan Bedi  	Kapil Dev 	Kapil Dev
9	Chandrashekhar 	Dilip Doshi	Prabhakar
10	Prasanna	Ravi Shastri	Kumble
11	Venkat      	Venkat      	Maninder

• Good side to start with. Greatest line up of spinners ever seen together since the four leg-break googlies bowlers of a century ago from South Africa. Two great young batsmen in Gavaskar and Vishwanath, Experience in the form of Wadekar and Sardesi. Pace attack (or lack of it) is what spoils this side. They brought hom India's first Test and series wins in both England and West Indies.
• The spinners break up but Kapil comes in.
• The batting has a new look, The stolidity of the earlier periods is being replaced by the flambiyance of the Azhars and the Sachins. The attack, with a yet fresh Kubmle and the aggressive Prabhakar is looking up though Kapil is still the leader of the pack.

New Zealand

[B]Era	72-77        	77-84	85-94[/B]
1	Glenn Turner	John Wright	John Wright
2	Bevan Congdon	Howarth     	Jones
3	Parker       	Bruce Edgar	Greatbatch
4	Mark Burgess	Mark Burgess	Crowe
5	Geoff Howarth	Jeremy Coney	Jeremy Coney
6	Hastings	Richard Hadlee	Richard Hadlee
7	Wadsworth	Ian Smith	Ian Smith
8	Hadlee Richard	Collinge	Lance Cairns
9	Hadlee Dayle	Lance Cairns    Chatfield
10	Collinge	Chatfield	Morrison 
11	Howarth     	Stephen Boock	Bracewell

Weakest of the four sides, New Zealand really do not make a difference to this discussion. No offense guys.

Australia and West Indies

[B]Era	WIN - 72-77	AUS : 77-84	AUS : 85-94[/B]
1	Fredricks	Graeme Wood	Mark Taylor
2	Grrenidge	Graham Yallop	David Boon
3	Richards	Greg Chappell	Border
4	Kallicharan	Alan Border	Jones
5	Clive Lloyd	Kim Hughes	Steve Waugh
6	Garry Sobers	John Dyson	Marsh/Healy
7	Brendon Julien	Rodney Marsh	McDermott
8	Derryk Murray	Dennis Lillee	Hughes
9	Andy Roberts	Jeff Thomson	Reid
10	Mike Holding	Geoff Lawson	Alderman
11	Lance Gibbs	Bruce Yardley	May

Just as the weakest side does not really matter, the strongest opponents do. It is this, more than anything else that made me go for the Chappell led side. I think the West Indian side of 72-77 is a much better side than the Australian sides under Border in the subsequent periods.
Having said that, I think the difference between the other opponents is not as large as I thought. I think I will leave it for you guys to discuss and fight over which side had better opponents.

My personal opinion is that the opponents of Chappell and Lloyd's West Indians are both comparable and stronger than those that faced Richards' West Indians. Of course, there are individual countries whose teams may have improved but the over all picture looks this way to me. Its just an opinion. You are free to form your own and discuss.

I must, however, revise what I said before. I stand corrected. Lloyd's West Indians appear to be the strongest team/most dominant team since 1960 because they lasted for almost a decade and left the team in a great shape.

Chappell's Aussie's were strong too but compared to Lloyds team they lasted for a much shorter period and after they left the team started to decline., slowly at first and pretty fast later.

 

[Slifer]

Imo sjs i find it very difficult to compare sides like S waughs, the WI under lloyd etc. For Lloyds team their strength was their awesome bowling attack which could take wickets everywhere cheaply as they proved between 76 and 84 (their peak period imo). If one bowler happened to break down or be injured etc there was always an equally capable one waiting in the wings. Like behind marshall, roberts, holding and garner u had: wayne daniel, mosely, croft, clarke, stephenson etc. For the recent aussie team i think mcgrath and warne were the difference plus the presence of Adam gilchrist. Gilchrist really revolutionised that no7 position esp as a wicketkeeper. I could go on but i have an appointment. will continue with my assessment when i get back

 

[SJS]

Imo sjs i find it very difficult to compare sides like S waughs, the WI under lloyd etc. For Lloyds team their strength was their awesome bowling attack which could take wickets everywhere cheaply as they proved between 76 and 84 (their peak period imo). If one bowler happened to break down or be injured etc there was always an equally capable one waiting in the wings. Like behind marshall, roberts, holding and garner u had: wayne daniel, mosely, croft, clarke, stephenson etc. For the recent aussie team i think mcgrath and warne were the difference plus the presence of Adam gilchrist. Gilchrist really revolutionised that no7 position esp as a wicketkeeper. I could go on but i have an appointment. will continue with my assessment when i get back

What you are really saying is that as a squad (as against a fit playing eleven) the West Indians score higher marks due the the fabulous reserves, Sure. Thats very true.

 

[Slifer]

I think Australia of recent vintage scores high marks in terms of reserves as well. But they had reserves in batting with the likes of : Blewett, Hussey brothers, Hughes and other batsmen who would have made most other teams of the current era. I do however feel that their bowling reserve was a bit thinner than the WI of the 1970/80s and for me the strength of the bowling attack of a team, to me makes the diff. BTW notice i didnt comment on the Aussies of the 70s as i dont know too much about them. One last thing, seeing that youve watched test cricket for the last 48 years, what do u think of the WI team of the mid 60s that had players like: Hunte, Kanhai, Sobers, Butcher, Hall, Gibbs, Griffith, Worrell?

 

[SJS]

I think Australia of recent vintage scores high marks in terms of reserves as well. But they had reserves in batting with the likes of : Blewett, Hussey brothers, Hughes and other batsmen who would have made most other teams of the current era. I do however feel that their bowling reserve was a bit thinner than the WI of the 1970/80s and for me the strength of the bowling attack of a team, to me makes the diff. BTW notice i didnt comment on the Aussies of the 70s as i dont know too much about them. One last thing, seeing that youve watched test cricket for the last 48 years, what do u think of the WI team of the mid 60s that had players like: Hunte, Kanhai, Sobers, Butcher, Hall, Gibbs, Griffith, Worrell?

You are right its the bowling that ultimately defines the greatest sides and it is the passing away of the bowling greats that hurts a side dominant for so long the most.

The same is true for the West Indies sides from 1948 to the end of 1964. They were comparable with the greatest batting sides of any era. Have a look at their top batsmen for this 16 year period. Remember there were no minnows and this covers all Tests played by West Indies.

[B]Player    	 Inns	 NO	 50s	 100s	 HS	 Runs	 Avg	 Ca	 St[/B]
A G Ganteaume	1	0	0	1	112	112	112.0	0	0
J L Hendriks	1	0	1	0	64	64	64.0	1	0
E D C Weekes	81	5	19	15	207	4455	58.6	49	0
G S A Sobers	79	9	12	14	  *365	4098	58.5	53	0
C L Walcott	74	7	14	15	220	3798	56.7	53	11
F M M Worrell	87	9	22	9	261	3860	49.5	43	0
R B Kanhai	66	2	13	7	256	3137	49.0	21	0
B F Butcher	25	3	6	3	142	1033	47.0	1	0
A F Rae    	24	2	4	4	109	1016	46.2	10	0
J B Stollmeyer	51	5	10	4	160	2026	44.0	19	0
C C Hunte	55	5	7	6	260	2193	43.9	15	0

[B]Overall  	544	47	108	78	1791	25792	51.9	265	11[/B]

That is an absolutely phenomenal list of batsmen from one country in a decade and a half. The bowling was not of the same caliber I am afraid and it wasn't consistent. Only Sobers and all rounder and Gibbs the off spinner really lasted to play for a long duration. Most of the other bowlers had relatively short peaks and though this side tended to dominate on the strength of its batting, they were also scored against heavily because of the limitations of bowling.

When I first saw West Indies it was 1966-67. During the previous tour in 1958 I was too young to even sneek off on my own to a Test match. So I have not seen the W's

The game that they played in delhi, where I lived was against a Prime Minister's XI and I was already playing senior division cricket in Delhi. We were very excited as one of our club players. Ramesh Saxena was also playing in this game which would probably decide his fate for the summer tour to England.

Coming back to the game, it was the first major game for Bishan Singh Bedi and my first look at him. He used to play with a regular turban in those days. Not many people realise how he looked then. Unfortunately one cant locate any pictures on the net too.

Hall did not play in the match and Sobers batted far too low in the order. But we had gone to see the players at the nets and it was an absolute treat to see these greats. They looed so effortless in whatever they did and that is my main image of both Hall and Sobers, If I have to describe Hall (whose pace was furious by any standards) I dont think I can do better than to say that his run up and delivery was as graceful as Bishan Bedi's bird like flight. It was fascinating how these fast bowlers came in as if they were gliding in and not running. I have often felt that if one cut off their lower limbs and just watched the torso during the run up, you wouldn't guess the guy was running. Trust me it was that smooth.

My main impression of Sobers at the nets is of a massive swing of the bat. A backlift that started from the sky and a followthrough that ended in the sky. Add his considerable height and you get the picture. Sobers with the bat and driving off wither foot was like the driving of the greatest of golfers. It is amazing how even his backfoot drives ended up with the bat so high. Sometimes off the frontfoot the bat in the follow through would go all the way around over his head and almost hit his back as in this picture.

]

The other thing that sticks in my memory of Sobers is his fantastic hand speed. The only one I have seen come close to it is Brain Lara. It would appear as if he was not going to play the ball, so late did he play it and then in a whirr his arms and bat would swing like a flash of lightening. If there is one batsman who is best appreciated from slow motion replays it is Sobers.

Finally my memories are of his fielding. His reach seemed like it extended dozens of feet on all side. Of course that wasn't the case but it sure looked like that. In those three days and a day at the nets, I saw Sobers stop so many balls speeding past either side of him and apparently out of reach by stretching his arms and his body as one and getting the ball bang in the middle of his hand as if he knew before hand where the ball was going to be. For most of those deliveries, the best fielders of today would have dived. Its not that Sobers did not dive. He did and brought off absolutely acrobatic catches but he took so many without diving. He must have sometimes soiled his spotless whites but he sure did not look as if he was clumsy enough to allow that.

In this game Sobers did not seem to take too much interest. On this tour he had got engaged to a relatively unknown Indian starlet, Anju Mahendroo and besides his 30 odd at number nine in the first innings he just bowled 1 over in the 1st innings and was hit wicket going for a big pull off Bedi if I remember right.. We were very disappointed since he did not bat in the second innings but on the last day he bowled with a semi new ball and had the opposition in some distress with two wickets for a few runs.

Bedi took six wickets in the first innings and that was our only solace from a disappointing game besides Saxena's 32 and 41 not out inspite of being sent in (he was playing as a batsman) at number eight. Other than Hanumant Singh's, he looked the best of the Indian batsmen on view and that is said without bias.

 

[kishaloy]

winning in any country

India is in tremendous form can beat any team anywhere

 

[Jono]

India is in tremendous form can beat any team anywhere

Not yet we can't. Not full series anyway.

 

[bagapath]

Not yet we can't. Not full series anyway.

dont see this indian team beating australia and SA in away series. and this is probably the best indian team i have seen in 30 years of cricket watching. oh, i hope to see one real world beating indian team with 4 crack bowlers before i die.

 

[Evermind]

dont see this indian team beating australia and SA in away series. and this is probably the best indian team i have seen in 30 years of cricket watching. oh, i hope to see one real world beating indian team with 4 crack bowlers before i die.

Do hope you're young and healthy.

 

[bagapath]

Do hope you're young and healthy.

i am 34, dont have any terminal illness as of now. still, i dont think i will ever get to root for an indian team with a bowling attack that can match

marshall/holding/garner/roberts
marshall/ambrose/bishop/walsh
wasim/imran/waqar/qadir
wasim/waqar/shoaib/saqlain
mcgrath/gillespie/warne/kasprowicz
mcgrath/lee/warne/clark
donald/pollock/ntini/kallis/

the best i have seen was srinath/zaheer/kumble/harbhajan and it is a sad attack compared to the ones i have listed above

 

[SJS]

dont see this indian team beating australia and SA in away series. and this is probably the best indian team i have seen in 30 years of cricket watching. oh, i hope to see one real world beating indian team with 4 crack bowlers before i die.

If even today, BCCI starts making more sporting wickets (for the faster bowlers) in India and the next generation of Indian bowlers gets to bowl on these (and the batsmen grow up playing such bowling) you may surely live to see it. Of course, T-20 may just about kill Test cricket in India before that.

 

[Dissector]

I think it's selling this Indian team short to say it can't win in SA or Australia. They may or may not do it but their last series there certainly showed they are capable. Against SA they had a decent shot of winning the last test and series as late as half-way in the fourth innings. Against Australia if the Symonds catch had been given in Sydney they would have had a shot of winning the test and the series. Out of seven tests India was highly competitive in six.

 

[SJS]

I think it's selling this Indian team short to say it can't win in SA or Australia. They may or may not do it but their last series there certainly showed they are capable. Against SA they had a decent shot of winning the last test and series as late as half-way in the fourth innings. Against Australia if the Symonds catch had been given in Sydney they would have had a shot of winning the test and the series. Out of seven tests India was highly competitive in six.

Oh India can surely win in both countries. I suspect their best chance of doing so would have been with the Sachin, Dravid and Laxman still around. It will get tougher without them.

It might be tougher for them in South Africa than in Australia.

 

[Dissector]

With a bit of luck at least a couple of them will be around when we tour SA and perhaps even Australia in early 2012.

Incidentally I happened to find a clip of Wes Hall's run-up and action just yesterday. It is indeed most impressive. (link takes you directly to the mpg file)
http://web.ukonline.co.uk/slitchfield/cricket/wes.mpg

 

[SJS]

With a bit of luck at least a couple of them will be around when we tour SA and perhaps even Australia in early 2012.

Incidentally I happened to find a clip of Wes Hall's run-up and action just yesterday. It is indeed most impressive. (link takes you directly to the mpg file)
http://web.ukonline.co.uk/slitchfield/cricket/wes.mpg

This site has some lovely mpg clips.

Replace wes in that link with larwood or tyson or sobers or roberts or garner or lillee or thomson and you will see soe very short but good clips. I am sure there are others too.

Just go here and there is a list of clips available.