Johnson V Flintoff

[Richard]

There are reasons people have put forward in this thread that you are ignoring beyond simple "convention".

I'm not ignoring them - I just don't feel they're correct. "Convention" is based around these (IMO) misplaced beliefs.

 

[Richard]

True, but there's an element of truth there nonetheless IMO. Personally I think any suggestion that, if a team is only to have one world class bowler, Donald is a better option than Murali to be highly highly dubious.

Just don't get that. Whatever angle you look at it, Donald can do more than Murali\Warne can. You can't walk down the pitch and smash Donald back over his head - ever. Even if you'll pay for trying against Warne\Murali more often than you'll succeed (and you will, unless you're Sachin Tendulkar, Brian Lara, Matthew Hayden or someone of the very top of the tree as a player of spin), you just won't ever try against Donald. Even if you're the best player of seam-bowling there's ever been.

Whether it's as a one-man attack or a component in a top-notch attack, a top-class seamer like Donald offers more than a top-class spinner does. Both in terms of attack and defence (and the two are not mutually exclusive). A spinner offers a little chance for the batsman to dictate the pace of play - a seamer never does, under any circumstance. Against a seamer, you can only score when he makes an error. And if you think someone who moves the ball a long way, off pitch and through air, at 90mph is less threatening than one who moves it a bit through the air and a lot off the pitch at 50mph, well... I just can't fathom that TBH.

 

[Richard]

Strongly disagree with this. If nothing else, and there is plenty else to add, ask yourself which of the team that featured Warne, or the team that featured Donald, won more regularly?

If you'd given Australia of 1993/94 a Donald (in place of, say, a Reiffel), you'd have made them into almost certainly the best team ever, IMO.

Give SA of 1993/94 a Warne in place of a Donald, and Aus would be ahead of them for mine (and they weren't in 1993/94 - the two were on level-pegging).

 

[Cricket_God]

Flintoff will always be ahead of johnson,Flintoff if fit is the best bowler in the world in all formats and most batsman in the world will agree,Johnson just had a good year but that
does not mean he will continue to have such years,Johnson will have to put in a few good years still he can be compared.

 

[sudhindra9]

Johnson wins the race

He is bowling a lot better than Flintoff
and his batting is improving tooo

Watch out for Stuart Broad

 

[DaRick]

Well, right now, Johnson is a much better bowler - he gets you wickets apently, he has lately learned to move it both ways (although not as consistently as what I'd like) and he can play the role of both shock and stock bowler if need be. He can also maintain express pace. That and his injury problems appear to be well and truly a thing of the past right now (although they may return if he isn't managed correctly). His batting appears to be in better nick, too.

That being said, Flintoff has had a far better career, because he's taken more wickets and scored more runs in an all-round capacity. Plus, he's a very good slip fielder.

Lately, Flintoff has bowled pretty well, but he is almost exclusively a stock bowler these days, plugging away, keeping the runs down and allowing the other bowlers to attack more. Back in 2005, he could both take wickets quickly and in large number and constrict if need be. As injury has blighted him, he's slowly become more one-dimensional than before. Flintoff is clearly still resourceful enough to thrive in multiple conditions, though. We don't know whether Johnson is (although his 11-fer in Perth indicates that he may be). Flintoff's batting has also been pretty poor for the past few years, although I never much rated it, to be honest.

As to the original question, Johnson. Flintoff's getting older and Johnson is entering his prime.

 

[oitoitoi]

Flintoff will always be ahead of johnson,Flintoff if fit is the best bowler in the world in all formats and most batsman in the world will agree,Johnson just had a good year but that
does not mean he will continue to have such years,Johnson will have to put in a few good years still he can be compared.

Um...Dale Steyn, Murali? Never mind all those other bowlers who actually take wickets in test matches instead of just looking good....2 5-fors in a 70 match career doesn't exactly scream best bowler in the world now does it? I know you said all formats but even with that criteria Johnson is better than him, when fit Lee too, and the ever underrated Ntini.

 

[oitoitoi]

If you'd given Australia of 1993/94 a Donald (in place of, say, a Reiffel), you'd have made them into almost certainly the best team ever, IMO.

Give SA of 1993/94 a Warne in place of a Donald, and Aus would be ahead of them for mine (and they weren't in 1993/94 - the two were on level-pegging).

You rate their batting that highly? Their seamers too? I mean they were good but none of them were great bowlers (the seamers). Better than the Windies or even later Australian sides when Mcgrath was playing at his prime?

 

[Richard]

The Australian batting of 1993 and 1993/94 was almost certainly the strongest of their 1989-2006/07 period: Taylor, Slater, Boon, M Waugh, Border, S Waugh, Healy. Over the course of this year, each of these players averaged 44 or more, and all bar Slater (a mere 74) played over 100 Tests. Thereafter, there was always at least one hole in the batting, though it came very close to being filled in 2004 (Langer, Hayden, Ponting, Martyn, Lehmann, Katich, Gilchrist - just a shame this only played together once).

The only holes the Australians had in 1993 and 1993/94 was in the seam-bowling. McGrath only became Test-class in 1995, and Hughes, who had been an excellent bowler for several years, essentially had his career finished in 1993 by a serious knee injury. McDermott missed 1993 with a twisted bowel ().

If Hughes had not suffered the knee injury in 1993 and McDermott the twisted bowel, and if Reiffel had not been so injury-prone all career, the attack (McDermott, Hughes, Reiffel, Warne) would've been almost as good as the eventual best (McGrath, Gillespie, Kasprowicz, Warne) which played in 2004 and 2004/05.

Now just imagine Donald, McDermott, Hughes, Warne. If that'd been available, it'd have been bettered by 2 or 3 attacks at best in history.

 

[James_W]

I had a friend die from a twisted bowel, quite a serious predicament that. Wouldn't have ever thought it could be potentially fatal.

 

[Richard]

Bloody hell. Me neither. I knew it was execrably painful, but never knew it was unduly dangerous.

Often wondered how it even happens ITFP. Think I'll find-out and do my utmost to avoid it from now on.

 

[Cricket_God]

Um...Dale Steyn, Murali? Never mind all those other bowlers who actually take wickets in test matches instead of just looking good....2 5-fors in a 70 match career doesn't exactly scream best bowler in the world now does it? I know you said all formats but even with that criteria Johnson is better than him, when fit Lee too, and the ever underrated Ntini.

Stats never tell you the whole picture mate,steyn has taken more 5 wickets in a match
but he is southafrica opening bowler even if he gets hammered at the top he will take the tailenders wicket and his figures will look good same with many bowlers,If you ask any batsman which bowler currently they will not like to face in the world most will tell flintoff
because on docile of pitches he can test the best batsman,In terms of bowling talent johnson lags behind ,His seam position is teh worst in the world or close to it,Right now
he is getting wickets as his pace is up and he consistently bowls at 140-150 km/ph
but even a slight decrease in speed will lead to a significant drop in performance specially
on flat tracks where the balls will not seam in{All left armers have been able to seam the ball in souithafrica}.Batting there is no comparison with flintoff as of now.

 

[Top_Cat]

In terms of bowling talent johnson lags behind ,His seam position is teh worst in the world or close to it,Right now
he is getting wickets as his pace is up and he consistently bowls at 140-150 km/ph
but even a slight decrease in speed will lead to a significant drop in performance specially
on flat tracks where the balls will not seam in{All left armers have been able to seam the ball in souithafrica}.Batting there is no comparison with flintoff as of now.

So you didn't notice the fact he was swinging the ball into the right-handers in South Africa? Poor seam position, indeed. For South Africa, that is.

 

[Cricket_God]

So you didn't notice the fact he was swinging the ball into the right-handers in South Africa? Poor seam position, indeed. For South Africa, that is.

The balls seamed off the pitch ,parnell also seamed it in,johnson will not be able to bring the ball back ina any country except south africa.his seam position is that poor.

 

[TT Boy]

Stats never tell you the whole picture mate,steyn has taken more 5 wickets in a match
but he is southafrica opening bowler even if he gets hammered at the top he will take the tailenders wicket and his figures will look good same with many bowlers,If you ask any batsman which bowler currently they will not like to face in the world most will tell flintoff
because on docile of pitches he can test the best batsman,In terms of bowling talent johnson lags behind ,His seam position is teh worst in the world or close to it,Right now
he is getting wickets as his pace is up and he consistently bowls at 140-150 km/ph
but even a slight decrease in speed will lead to a significant drop in performance specially
on flat tracks where the balls will not seam in{All left armers have been able to seam the ball in souithafrica}.Batting there is no comparison with flintoff as of now.

Of course not, Johnson is head and shoulders the better batsman on recent form. How many years since Fred last scored a test ton?

And you was wrong about Johnson...

http://www.cricketweb.net/forum/cri...hink-best-bowlers-present-13.html#post1788039

 

[TT Boy]

The balls seamed off the pitch ,parnell also seamed it in,johnson will not be able to bring the ball back ina any country except south africa.his seam position is that poor.

Johnson swung the ball back into the right handers both at the Wanderers and Kingsmead. Parnell also swung the ball back into Clarke on Sunday...

 

[Top_Cat]

The balls seamed off the pitch ,parnell also seamed it in,johnson will not be able to bring the ball back ina any country except south africa.his seam position is that poor.

Okay so you didn't see the Test series. Got it.

 

[Cricket_God]

Okay so you didn't see the Test series. Got it.

In the test series also the ball seamed{Movement of the pitch} in as the ball comes out
of johnson hand with scrambled seam he gets very little swing in the air and reverse swing
so he depends on the pitch for movement.

 

[Top_Cat]

In the test series also the ball seamed{Movement of the pitch} in as the ball comes out
of johnson hand with scrambled seam he gets very little swing in the air and reverse swing
so he depends on the pitch for movement.

Haha, my God. Check some highlights of the Kingsmead Test for goodness sake. Was well documented how many poles Johnson took with big booming in-swingers.

 

[Cricket_God]

Haha, my God. Check some highlights of the Kingsmead Test for goodness sake. Was well documented how many poles Johnson took with big booming in-swingers.

They were not booming inswingers ,Wait till you see him in australia you will know the difference mate.