Vettori vs. Panesar vs. Shakib vs. Harris (Test Bowling)

[BoyBrumby]

If I were picking a team I'd go with Vettori because of what else he brings to the table. Never seen Shakib bowl tho, so can't really comment on him.

Monty is by far the biggest turner of the three I have seen, yet seems to be a spinning savant. He just doesn't have the cricketing nous that Harris or Vettori do. In the 5th test he did seem to be experimenting with a quicker ball (possibly after the coaching with Mushy), but his returns have dropped off since debut and is almost definitely behind Swann in the pecking order now.

 

[Craig]

Watching back on Vettori's haul in NZ vs Australia when only 18, and he was giving the ball a big tweak back then.

You being the same sort of spinner as him, would the stress fractures he had in 2000 influenced in how far he spins the ball and then change his role from being an attacking spinner to more of a defensive one?

 

[vic_orthdox]

Wouldn't have enough idea about stress fractures and what changes he made to his action without getting my hands on a lot of video. You look at his action now, and it's so easy through the crease. You get the feeling that he could actually impart more spin if he really exerted a lot more on the ball, but may lose his control.

One thing about being in a situation like Vettori's is that you may see yourself as unable to afford to completely remodel your action, take a step back to take two steps forwards. Because whilst you take that step back, it may give someone else the chance to take your spot.

 

[Zinzan]

I voted Shakib, but can't help think Vettori would have a much better average if he had played his cricket for a stronger test team. He may not have take as many wickets, but I'm sure he would have had a better average with better bowlers at the other end. More likely to end with figures like 3-70 as opposed to typical Vettori spells like 4/178 when teams regularly score 400+ against NZ.

 

[Scaly piscine]

Come back when your not as condescending. If you don't rate Vettori, fine, you are entitled to that opinion, but you come across as very troll like, almost baiting people for a reaction. Look at Uppercut, he is arguing against Vettori, but there is no way he is condescending about it, because you know, he offers a decent argument to his posts.

Like I give a **** what most people think. Most people are blatantly wrong and stupid, for instance there's Voltman who is just a guy who stalks me waiting for an opportunity to have a shot at me. He's like the new Richard but with a cliquey posse of sycophantic halfwits. It's funny as hell having a quick glance at NZ series threads and watching him have a go at anyone who dares say anything towards the beloved also-ran sportsmen he likes. He's so bad people have started commenting on it before the mandatory bandwagoning kicks in.

I've already dissected Vettori's record and other people have said about his high percentage of tailend wickets. If people want to cop out and cry about one thing or another instead of coming up with a counter-argument then that's up to them.

 

[Uppercut]

Every soldier marches out of line except Scaly Piscine.

 

[ozone]

Agree with what Scaly is saying, but the way he's saying it is just going to upset people. That said, would still take Vettori ahead of any of the others ATM, although I haven't seen enough of Shakib in tests to make a fair assessment of him. For a test starting tommorow, would take Harris next, and Panesar last.

However, would put a fair amount of money on Panesar finishing with more wickets at a better average than any of the others.

 

[Uppercut]

However, would put a fair amount of money on Panesar finishing with more wickets at a better average than any of the others.

Why? He hasn't improved a bit in his first three years in international cricket, what makes you think he will in the future?

 

[ozone]

Why? He hasn't improved a bit in his first three years in international cricket, what makes you think he will in the future?

In the past three years, he's been the best spinner England have had available, hasn't been under any pressure for his spot, and has had cult status which, for a time, made him immune from being dropped. In those three years, he has arguably gone backwards in fact.

The thing Monty has going for him is that he does have the ability to turn the ball a long way, far further than any other fingerspinner in England. With help (which may come from Mushy or maybe elsewhere in the future) he could be comfortably the best spinner in England. Although this help hasn't come in the past few years, I cannot see how Monty can fail to improve if someone gives him just a bit of assistance, which (albeit on the evidence of one test), seems to be coming.

The other factor will be that he is not going to have huge competition for his spot in the test side in the long term. Although Swann is bowling well at the moment, I think he may end up following a similar sort of path to Sidebottom; a bowler whos greatest strength is how well he knows his own game, a benefit of playing in the county game for so long. The other longer term option, Rashid, is, contary to popular opinion, not going to solve all of Englands spinning problems for the next 15 years (although I think he may make it in test cricket as an all-rounder). I suspect the reason he is seen as such is simply because he is a young leggie who has come onto the scene and taken wickets.

Of course, I could be wrong about any of these things, and Monty might never play regularly for England again, but I don't think I am. I am quite confident he will end up as Englands best spinner in a long time.

BTW, just reread the post, and it sounds a bit rant-like which wasn't really my intention, just trying to justify my opinion.

 

[Scaly piscine]

The only way Panesar will end up with a better average is if he gets injured whenever England tour anywhere in Asia except Bangladesh and England decide to conjure up bunsens for the Ashes.

 

[Smudge]

Like I give a **** what most people think. Most people are blatantly wrong and stupid, for instance there's Voltman who is just a guy who stalks me waiting for an opportunity to have a shot at me. He's like the new Richard but with a cliquey posse of sycophantic halfwits. It's funny as hell having a quick glance at NZ series threads and watching him have a go at anyone who dares say anything towards the beloved also-ran sportsmen he likes. He's so bad people have started commenting on it before the mandatory bandwagoning kicks in.

Not bad, not bad.

My reply? You play Scrabble competitively. Yes, Scrabble. You have no comeback.


That is all.

 

[grant28]

I'm going with:

Panesar
Vettori
Harris
Shakib

Really close with the top 3 and then Shakib a fair bit behind. He's only really played in the sub-continent and has only taken 35 wickets - a bit overrated at the moment, I think.

 

[Scaly piscine]

Yea I get to fly over to Malaysia for a fortnight or so to represent Britain in two tournaments, first one with a US$15,000 first prize and second one with a US$20,000 first prize. Horrible.

 

[Manee]

Not bad, not bad.

My reply? You play Scrabble competitively. Yes, Scrabble. You have no comeback.


That is all.

Yea I get to fly over to Malaysia for a fortnight or so to represent Britain in two tournaments, first one with a US$15,000 first prize and second one with a US$20,000 first prize. Horrible.

Oh my! How can Volty come back? Tbh though Scaly, if we take out your performances with vowels, you really are a piss poor player.

 

[ozone]

Oh my! How can Volty come back? Tbh though Scaly, if we take out your performances with vowels, you really are a piss poor player.

Actually made me LOL.

 

[Flem274*]

Not bad, not bad.

My reply? You play Scrabble competitively. Yes, Scrabble. You have no comeback.


That is all.

Headshot.

 

[HeathDavisSpeed]

Yea I get to fly over to Malaysia for a fortnight or so to represent Britain in two tournaments, first one with a US$15,000 first prize and second one with a US$20,000 first prize. Horrible.

What are the ladyboys like over in Malaysia? I'm assuming they provide a second niche benefit of the World Scrabble Tour?

 

[Smudge]

Yea I get to fly over to Malaysia for a fortnight or so to represent Britain in two tournaments, first one with a US$15,000 first prize and second one with a US$20,000 first prize. Horrible.

Yes. Represent Britain at Scrabble. Problem is, it's still scrabble.

 

[thierry henry]

I voted Shakib, but can't help think Vettori would have a much better average if he had played his cricket for a stronger test team. He may not have take as many wickets, but I'm sure he would have had a better average with better bowlers at the other end. More likely to end with figures like 3-70 as opposed to typical Vettori spells like 4/178 when teams regularly score 400+ against NZ.

This is simply not true in any way

The NZ bowling attack has, overall, been perfectly serviceable throughout Vettori's career

Furthermore, opposing teams have not scored a disproportionately high number of runs against NZ

 

[Athlai]

This is simply not true in any way

The NZ bowling attack has, overall, been perfectly serviceable throughout Vettori's career

Furthermore, opposing teams have not scored a disproportionately high number of runs against NZ

I think perhaps he could have intended our poor batting lineup, meaning that no pressure was ever put on the opposition to make runs, otherwise I agree with you. Our attack has always been good to serviceable.