***Official India in New Zealand***

[Pratters]

It is true that Laxman has not had great success in conditions where the ball swings in the air and moves off it too. The two countries where it is most prevalent as a condition are England and South Africa. Here is his record on his five tours (14 Tests) to these countries.

[B][SIZE="3"]Season/Versus	M	Inns	NO	50s100s	HS	Runs	 Avg[/SIZE][/B]

1996-1997 SAF   2	3	2	0	0	35no	40	40
2001-2002 SAF  	2	3	0	1	0	89	150	50
2002 ENG 	4	6	1	1	0	74	199	39.8
2006-2007 SAF   3	6	1	2	0	73	180	36
2007 ENG 	3	5	1	2	0	54	205	51.25
[B][COLOR="DarkRed"]OVERALL RECORD	14	23	5	6	0	290	774	43[/COLOR][/B]

Its not a bad record if you just look at the average - 43 against a career average of 44 something. But its conspicuous by the missing century. In fact he really did not stand out in any of these series except, maybe, in the last tour to England. Its not surprising that Laxman should not have the big scores in such conditions. His very game is such that lateral movement, particularly late swing would trouble him. Its because of his being a free stroking player who plays the shot he wants to not because thats where that ball should, by the book, be hit. He is not going to leave a ball because it is swinging at the last minute. He has already made up his mind to play it and he will. The fact that he does not have great foot movement and does not hesitate hitting balls from the off stump and outside to mid wicket doesn't help. But thank God for that for Laxman wouldn't be Laxman if he played differently.

Who wants players like Vishwanath, Azharuddin and Laxman to bat like Gavaskar or Boycott? Our compulsive need to see our favourite stars averaging in the fifties (if not higher) is what makes us devalue their real worth - as artists who are to be cherished and not to be downgraded by breaking their art down to mere numbers. There will be others who will score the big hundreds in England for me Laxman's hundreds in Australia, West Indies and at home are good enough

Sorry but I disagree with you. What Laxman lacks in foot movement, he makes up by sheer strokeplay much like Azhar did.

 

[Xuhaib]

Did not go through the thread so just want to know how did Ishant go? did he bowl as well as the figures suggest going by cricinfo the ball to Taylor seems like a gaffer.

 

[SJS]

Did not go through the thread so just want to know how did Ishant go? did he bowl as well as the figures suggest going by cricinfo the ball to Taylor seems like a gaffer.

He bowled okay not at his best but the deliveries that got him his first two wickets were the best of the day.

 

[Precambrian]

It is true that Laxman has not had great success in conditions where the ball swings in the air and moves off it too. The two countries where it is most prevalent as a condition are England and South Africa. Here is his record on his five tours (14 Tests) to these countries.

[B][SIZE="3"]Season/Versus	M	Inns	NO	50s100s	HS	Runs	 Avg[/SIZE][/B]

1996-1997 SAF   2	3	2	0	0	35no	40	40
2001-2002 SAF  	2	3	0	1	0	89	150	50
2002 ENG 	4	6	1	1	0	74	199	39.8
2006-2007 SAF   3	6	1	2	0	73	180	36
2007 ENG 	3	5	1	2	0	54	205	51.25
[B][COLOR="DarkRed"]OVERALL RECORD	14	23	5	6	0	290	774	43[/COLOR][/B]

Its not a bad record if you just look at the average - 43 against a career average of 44 something. But its conspicuous by the missing century. In fact he really did not stand out in any of these series except, maybe, in the last tour to England. Its not surprising that Laxman should not have the big scores in such conditions. His very game is such that lateral movement, particularly late swing would trouble him. Its because of his being a free stroking player who plays the shot he wants to not because thats where that ball should, by the book, be hit. He is not going to leave a ball because it is swinging at the last minute. He has already made up his mind to play it and he will. The fact that he does not have great foot movement and does not hesitate hitting balls from the off stump and outside to mid wicket doesn't help. But thank God for that for Laxman wouldn't be Laxman if he played differently.

Who wants players like Vishwanath, Azharuddin and Laxman to bat like Gavaskar or Boycott? Our compulsive need to see our favourite stars averaging in the fifties (if not higher) is what makes us devalue their real worth - as artists who are to be cherished and not to be downgraded by breaking their art down to mere numbers. There will be others who will score the big hundreds in England for me Laxman's hundreds in Australia, West Indies and at home are good enough

PS Having said that, it sure is a record Laxman would want to set right although it to ask him to change his style of play at this late stage of his career is not realistic.

I did not include the last tour of New Zealand for that was something else. Those were not just wickets with movement - they really were substandards wickets.

SJS, please dont get me wrong. I am a big fan of his batting. And when he is in the mood, he is a treat for the gods, and sometimes, even overshadows Tendulkar.

But that said, it would be unfair as a cricket fan if I am wholly obsessed with the positives and oblivious to the negatives of the batting. I can be a good student of the game only if I am prepared to see the pros and cons of all the stuff I adore in the game, and Laxman is one of them. I can brag about his supple strokeplay all day along. But equally I can debate on his shortcomings. And as you pointed out, his inability to score big in such testing conditions is one of them. Not that it really matters to the current scenario. He would be a definite pick in my India squad anywhere anytime.

What surprises and annoys is that respectable CWers like Pratters, descend to being chauvinistic in his defence of Laxman, without even giving a balanced ear for the very obvious fact that he is yet to really make a mark in such conditions. I did not say a single sentence or word that was a random throw-in, and backed up my arguments with data which I feel was valid enough.

I hope that given the relatively easier conditions this time around, and the absence of SE Bond, would help Laxman to shrug off that little chip on his shoulder and bring the gods to the NZ skies.

 

[Precambrian]

Did not go through the thread so just want to know how did Ishant go? did he bowl as well as the figures suggest going by cricinfo the ball to Taylor seems like a gaffer.

He did. But lacked adequate support from the field and other bowlers after the initial outburst.

 

[SJS]

Is there an innings total lower than this one (NZL's) with two centurions ? I doubt it.

 

[Xuhaib]

He bowled okay not at his best but the deliveries that got him his first two wickets were the best of the day.

Thanks SJS. The boy is certainly living up to his enormous potential

 

[Precambrian]

That 73 > many test 100s.

Maybe some. But not enough to qualify him to the realm of superiority.

 

[Pratters]

What surprises and annoys is that respectable CWers like Pratters, descend to being chauvinistic in his defence of Laxman, without even giving a balanced ear for the very obvious fact that he is yet to really make a mark in such conditions. I did not say a single sentence or word that was a random throw-in, and backed up my arguments with data which I feel was valid enough.

I gave figures too. I am not being chauvinistic. Sorry if you felt I came too hard upon you. I don't agree with your opinion. Lets just agree to disagree on this.

 

[Pratters]

Maybe some. But not enough to qualify him to the realm of superiority.

Duh. Who is saying he is a superior player of swing bowling than many others. He is far from average though which is what you implied.

 

[honestbharani]

From Cricinfo - Wish you were here





Really starting to get annoying.

Ntini + Steyn
Johnson + Siddle

Maybe a distant third?

How are Johnson and Siddle better than these two?



Based on one good away series?????????????



I understand Ntini and Steyn and maybe some other MORE PROVEN attack... But Johnson and Siddle, gimme a break.....

 

[Lambu]

How are Johnson and Siddle better than these two?



Based on one good away series?????????????



I understand Ntini and Steyn and maybe some other MORE PROVEN attack... But Johnson and Siddle, gimme a break.....

He almost always speaks garbage on matters relating to Indian cricket(esp. bowling)..Johnson and Siddle better than Ishant and Zak? We all saw what happened in the Border Gavaskar Trophy when these bowlers went head to head.

 

[SJS]

SJS, please dont get me wrong. I am a big fan of his batting. And when he is in the mood, he is a treat for the gods, and sometimes, even overshadows Tendulkar.

But that said, it would be unfair as a cricket fan if I am wholly obsessed with the positives and oblivious to the negatives of the batting. I can be a good student of the game only if I am prepared to see the pros and cons of all the stuff I adore in the game, and Laxman is one of them. I can brag about his supple strokeplay all day along. But equally I can debate on his shortcomings. And as you pointed out, his inability to score big in such testing conditions is one of them. Not that it really matters to the current scenario. He would be a definite pick in my India squad anywhere anytime.

What surprises and annoys is that respectable CWers like Pratters, descend to being chauvinistic in his defence of Laxman, without even giving a balanced ear for the very obvious fact that he is yet to really make a mark in such conditions. I did not say a single sentence or word that was a random throw-in, and backed up my arguments with data which I feel was valid enough.

I hope that given the relatively easier conditions this time around, and the absence of SE Bond, would help Laxman to shrug off that little chip on his shoulder and bring the gods to the NZ skies.

Oh I agree he has a problem with his technique. His game is similar to Azhar's or even Vishwanath's but both of them had far better footwork than Laxman. Unfortunately, it is too late to do anything about it now. The time to do something was early in his career when he was struggling at international level. He got over it by really making his good form and wickets that suit him count. Vishwanath had better technique but wouldn't have gone for the 280 the way Laxman did.

So I agree with you that he can be very frustrating for his fans but we have to live with it and enjoy what we get.

Look at Gambhir as of today. He is in his best form getting runs all the time but just look at what he does to good length or just slightly short of good length deliveries on the off stump. He doesn't leave them alone (assuming they are not going on to the stumps), he doesn't play them with a straight bat back to the bowler, he doesnt cut them hard, if there is room - he just dabs them, jabs at them, nudges them, tickles them with an open face of the bat as if giving catching practice to the slips - when the ball is leaving him. He is lucky he doesnt get a touch often and the ball falls short of the slips at time but he is also losing his wicket at others. It is a compulsive reaction of a player not used to leaving deliveries alone and playing one day cricket where absence of slips will get you runs.

It is ridiculous that someone at this level should not correct an obvious defect even when it is still early days. Yuvraj has a similar problem.

The coach should be taking them to task and telling them what to do. I dont know if he is. Players will have/develop technical flaws but someone needs to correct them early enough, irrespective of how big the star maybe.

 

[SJS]

SJS, please dont get me wrong. I am a big fan of his batting. And when he is in the mood, he is a treat for the gods, and sometimes, even overshadows Tendulkar.

But that said, it would be unfair as a cricket fan if I am wholly obsessed with the positives and oblivious to the negatives of the batting. I can be a good student of the game only if I am prepared to see the pros and cons of all the stuff I adore in the game, and Laxman is one of them. I can brag about his supple strokeplay all day along. But equally I can debate on his shortcomings. And as you pointed out, his inability to score big in such testing conditions is one of them. Not that it really matters to the current scenario. He would be a definite pick in my India squad anywhere anytime.

What surprises and annoys is that respectable CWers like Pratters, descend to being chauvinistic in his defence of Laxman, without even giving a balanced ear for the very obvious fact that he is yet to really make a mark in such conditions. I did not say a single sentence or word that was a random throw-in, and backed up my arguments with data which I feel was valid enough.

I hope that given the relatively easier conditions this time around, and the absence of SE Bond, would help Laxman to shrug off that little chip on his shoulder and bring the gods to the NZ skies.

.... and that is why he is never in consideration for an all time Indian XI. If he hasn't done justice to his immense talent it is not just bad luck, he lacks something and this is it.

 

[SJS]

.... and that is why he is never in consideration for an all time Indian XI. If he hasn't done justice to his immense talent it is not just bad luck, he lacks something and this is it.

I find it amusing when we make these all time XI'x. The least we can do is to make a touring squad of 16 or specify the conditions for which we are choosing the side. I would not take even Bradman as a certainty if, for example, we were selecting a side to play on very bad sticky wickets. Nor would I ever select the great Shane Warne if they were going to play an all time Indian side in India.

Having said that Laxman's defect is more basic and movement in the air and conditions as they prevail in England, South Africa and even New Zealand are really the kind of conditions players must learn to master. It is not a coincidence that international players who played in county cricket (upto the time when standards were better) invariably became big stars in their own countries. A similar exposure in South Africa would be wonderful for all cricketers.

 

[SJS]

Is there an innings total lower than this one (NZL's) with two centurions ? I doubt it.

I found the answer. This is an all time record.

Australia with 284 including a century each by Lawry and Ian Chappell in this match was the previous record.

 

[Pratters]

Wow.

 

[Pratters]

Laxman does lack some thing in his game. His biggest strength and weakness is concentration and it's lack. Most 100s are v Australia which means that when he puts his mind to it, he can score it big. Look at his massive Eden Gardens knock for instance. There is no doubt on the ability front.

However, look at his conversion rate 37 50s and merely 13 100s and you know he hasn't made it count more often than not when he has been on the crease.

 

[cowboysfan]

Oh I agree he has a problem with his technique. His game is similar to Azhar's or even Vishwanath's but both of them had far better footwork than Laxman. Unfortunately, it is too late to do anything about it now. The time to do something was early in his career when he was struggling at international level. He got over it by really making his good form and wickets that suit him count. Vishwanath had better technique but wouldn't have gone for the 280 the way Laxman did.

So I agree with you that he can be very frustrating for his fans but we have to live with it and enjoy what we get.

Look at Gambhir as of today. He is in his best form getting runs all the time but just look at what he does to good length or just slightly short of good length deliveries on the off stump. He doesn't leave them alone (assuming they are not going on to the stumps), he doesn't play them with a straight bat back to the bowler, he doesnt cut them hard, if there is room - he just dabs them, jabs at them, nudges them, tickles them with an open face of the bat as if giving catching practice to the slips - when the ball is leaving him. He is lucky he doesnt get a touch often and the ball falls short of the slips at time but he is also losing his wicket at others. It is a compulsive reaction of a player not used to leaving deliveries alone and playing one day cricket where absence of slips will get you runs.

It is ridiculous that someone at this level should not correct an obvious defect even when it is still early days. Yuvraj has a similar problem.

The coach should be taking them to task and telling them what to do. I dont know if he is. Players will have/develop technical flaws but someone needs to correct them early enough, irrespective of how big the star maybe.

he has gotten out to that the most number of times-just make me mad sometimes when he does that.he has too many other scoring shots to be playing that risky shot.

 

[Shri]

He also has the habit of exposing tail-enders to too many balls in an over when India are trying to prevent the fall of wickets..