All Time India XI

[SJS]

What has tempted you to put Vishy over Hazare now SJS sir??

First and foremost, if you replace Vishy with Hazare I would not argue. Its a toss up and many would agree to your view just as most (who saw him) would want to somehow include Vishy in the side. Gavaskar wasn't alone in thinking Vishy was a better batsman then him, many Indians of those days thought the same. On the other hand, Hazare was one of the finest batsmen in the world of his time and would not me amiss in any all time shortlist too.

I am a great fan of Hazare and have almost always included him in all time India teams although I never saw him play and saw the entire career of Vishwanath starting from watching him play in his very second Test live at Delhi's Ferozeshah Kotla.

It has been difficult to assess Hazare's game beyond his scores and the superlatives invariably used with his name by one and all. But one did not find many articles written about him by keen students of the game who were also writers. This is so because its near impossible to find older Indian cricket tours covered in a book and Indian cricketers haven't taken to great cricket writing - not cricketers of those times anyway.

Recently, I have come across a few the most precious of which is Indian Summer by John Arlott. Arlott, had been a policeman from 1934 to 1946. In that last year he joined the BBC Radio as a freelance talk producer. Almost his very first assignment was to cover the tour of the visiting Indians of 1946 for BBC's 'Eastern Services' and Home programmes. This coverage resulted in his first book. He was just 32. In 14 chapters he covers all the tour games and at the end of almost all the chapters he furnishes an essay/s on the one or two members of the visiting side. One such essay is on Hazare, then fully matured as a batsman at 31 though making his Test debut in this series. He had a modest series in England (in Tests) but in his next series in Australia (1947-48) he was to score 116 and 145 against Lindwall, Miller, Ian Johnson, Colin McCool and Ernie Toshack. The fact that India went on to lose the match by an innings underscores the value of Hazare's efforts.

This article gave me a peak at Hazare's batting slightly beyond his fabulous career stats and the superlatives one had seen associated with him. The bit on his batting is not very long and I will try and reproduce it here before I conclude this.

 

[SJS]

First and foremost, if you replace Vishy with Hazare I would not argue. Its a toss up and many would agree to your view just as most (who saw him) would want to somehow include Vishy in the side. Gavaskar wasn't alone in thinking Vishy was a better batsman then him, many Indians of those days thought the same. On the other hand, Hazare was one of the finest batsmen in the world of his time and would not me amiss in any all time shortlist too.

I am a great fan of Hazare and have almost always included him in all time India teams although I never saw him play and saw the entire career of Vishwanath starting from watching him play in his very second Test live at Delhi's Ferozeshah Kotla.

It has been difficult to assess Hazare's game beyond his scores and the superlatives invariably used with his name by one and all. But one did not find many articles written about him by keen students of the game who were also writers. This is so because its near impossible to find older Indian cricket tours covered in a book and Indian cricketers haven't taken to great cricket writing - not cricketers of those times anyway.

Recently, I have come across a few the most precious of which is Indian Summer by John Arlott. Arlott, had been a policeman from 1934 to 1946. In that last year he joined the BBC Radio as a freelance talk producer. Almost his very first assignment was to cover the tour of the visiting Indians of 1946 for BBC's 'Eastern Services' and Home programmes. This coverage resulted in his first book. He was just 32. In 14 chapters he covers all the tour games and at the end of almost all the chapters he furnishes an essay/s on the one or two members of the visiting side. One such essay is on Hazare, then fully matured as a batsman at 31 though making his Test debut in this series. He had a modest series in England (in Tests) but in his next series in Australia (1947-48) he was to score 116 and 145 against Lindwall, Miller, Ian Johnson, Colin McCool and Ernie Toshack. The fact that India went on to lose the match by an innings underscores the value of Hazare's efforts.

This article gave me a peak at Hazare's batting slightly beyond his fabulous career stats and the superlatives one had seen associated with him. The bit on his batting is not very long and I will try and reproduce it here before I conclude this.

“Vijay Hazare, tiger hunter, all round cricketer and captain in the State Army of Baroda looks, at first encounter, none of these things. A slim man with a shy gentle smile, much averse to walking in the rain, hiding within himself at social functions, rarely speaking unless spoken to, one hand at the extreme top of the bat handle, the other at the extreme bottom pressing against the blade, the bat between the pads so that it can not be moved straight back or straight forward, the batsman’s entire weight down upon it, right shoulder pulling round to set him four square to the bowler. How can such a man with such a wrong stance, make runs?

But see him stripped, without an ounce of spare flesh, sinew and muscle sliding rhythmically – not the dragging muscle of brute strength but the fine, delicate athletic machine, carefully tended – and recognize fitness for speed. Watch the grim antagonism at the wicket when the state of the game is against his side, the watchfulness that looks for every possible subtlety in the bowling and recognize the quality of resistance. Watch that awkward stance gradually melt as his square cut finds the off side gap. Or his hook the leg side boundary, and see a batsman always difficult to dismiss, who seizes his runs as they come: taking no risk but only a tol. Modelled in his run-scoring strokes on Merchant, Hazare is never satisfied with his score, is incapable of throwing away his wicket. The century mark, the double century mark, are only milestones in an unvarying pace of scoring. Few critics will become lyrical about his batting style, but that will not worry Hazare: he is concerned with scores and is developing into a most capable machine for making them.”​

First of all let us pay a tribute to John Arlott a great cricket commentator but what a writer. What a picture he paints for us - and this is his very first of so many efforts over four decades.

Now this does not paint Hazare in a negative light but the picture that emerges is of a player in complete contrast to Vishwanath. Against the5' 8", slim, athletic Hazare ("without an ounce of spare flesh, sinew and muscle sliding rhythmically"). we have Vishy, 5' 3", slightly podgy and swaying imperceptibly from side to side as he walks to the wicket ,giving the impression that he would be more comfortable with the pads off. Against the square shouldered, crouching and awkward stance of Hazare we have the easy graceful demeanour of Vishy moving smoothly in line and stroking the ball away in the only manner in which the word 'stroking' can be best visualised. Imagine a more complete stroke player in VVS Laxman and a shorter one and you may get some idea of Vishwanath at the crease.

..... to be continued

 

[aussie]

I can see that vision. Such a short bloke coming up againts a hypotetical All-time great pace attack, is beginning to look suspect despite his record i guesss.

But continue to info sir..

 

[The Sean]

Such a short bloke coming up againts a hypotetical All-time great pace attack, is beginning to look suspect despite his record i guesss.

Indeed - it's those tall batsmen like Bradman and Tendulkar you want to be relying on.

 

[aussie]

Indeed - it's those tall batsmen like Bradman and Tendulkar you want to be relying on.

LOL, well let me elaborate on Hazare's height being a potential deficiency.

Given unlike Bradman "the freak" & the likes of Tendulkar, Gavaskar who played in the over the 30 years againts some of the best bowlers of All-time.

Hazare regardless of how highly we want to rate him, will always fall into the category of those pre-war bats didn't face such quality seamers (although Hazare did have his moments).

Just to be clear i'm not one of those who looks down on pre-war players, but for a potential Hazare vs Vishwanath decision for the #5 spot. That argument is valid.

Plus the fact that if invision this the Indian batting line-up of:

Gavaskar
Sehwag
Dravid
Tendulkar
Hazare

Outside of Dravid, you got all these short (but great batsmen) who hypotetically could be in for some extended chin music.

 

[SJS]

I can see that vision. Such a short bloke coming up againts a hypotetical All-time great pace attack, is beginning to look suspect despite his record i guesss.

But continue to info sir..

I never said he was suspect. He was one of India's greatest ever batsmen. As I have written, I have always included him in my all time India XI. This time, I thought of giving marks to Vishwanath for style for a change. Its like someone preferring Compton to Barrington. That doesn't run down Barrington.

I have always maintained that all time XI's are very easy to make but impossible to defend on any objective criteria. Thats all.

 

[silentstriker]

LOL, well let me elaborate on Hazare's height being a potential deficiency.

Given unlike Bradman "the freak" & the likes of Tendulkar, Gavaskar who played in the over the 30 years againts some of the best bowlers of All-time.

Hazare regardless of how highly we want to rate him, will always fall into the category of those pre-war bats didn't face such quality seamers (although Hazare did have his moments).

Just to be clear i'm not one of those who looks down on pre-war players, but for a potential Hazare vs Vishwanath decision for the #5 spot. That argument is valid.

Plus the fact that if invision this the Indian batting line-up of:

Gavaskar
Sehwag
Dravid
Tendulkar
Hazare

Outside of Dravid, you got all these short (but great batsmen) who hypotetically could be in for some extended chin music.

Lara is short, Ponting is too and Ponting plays the pull as well as anybody. It's not a disadvantage.

 

[SJS]

I am not sure if height is a disadvantage in playing fast bowlers. This argument follows from the fact that the taller batsman would find it easier to play the BIG bouncer and even play it down if he wants against the shorter batsman who would either not be able to play it at all or have to hit it in the air if it really got big.

The fact is that there is a different height which is the 'awkward height' (for bouncers) for each batsman. Just like the good length spot is different for taller and shorter batsmen because of reach.

In the latter case (length for reach) the shorter batsman may prefer to play back for some deliveries the taller batsman would still have gone forward to, thats all.

Similarly, for the bouncers, the shorter batsman will just let go of deliveries that were too high for him to play (assuming he was good enough to know when to play and when to avoid). The bowler does not bowl bouncers to go over the batsman. He bowls them (or tries to bowl them) at a height most awkward for the batsman - not low enough to pull/hook comfortably and not so high as to duck under easily. That height just varies for each batsman. There is no point bowling to Tendulkar a bouncer that would have been awkward for Hayden.

 

[SJS]

Hazare played only 30 Test matches. More away (17) than at home. He played 4 away series. Here are his averages in each.

• England - 1946 (3 Tests) - 24.6
• Australia 1947-48 (4 Tests) - 47.7
  [*]England 1952 (4 Tests) - 55.5
• Windies 52-53 (5 Tests) - 19.4

Two good series out of four. Here is the bowling he faced on the two tours where he did well in Tests.

Australia(47-48)

• Lindwall,
• Miller,
• Ian Johnson,
• Bill Johnston,
• Ernie Toshack

Easily the best attack in the world. They beat India 4-0. Hazare was by far the best Indian batsman. THis team went on to trounce England later that summer and came to be known as Bradman's Invincibles.

England (1952)

• Trueman
• Bedser
• Laker
• Lock
• Rolly Jenkins

This was a resurgent England and this superb attack led England through eight years (30-51 to 1958) of world dominance. During this period England did not lose a single one of their 14 Test series losing just 11 Tests out of 62 !

Surely Hazare did enough to show he could play the best bowlers the world had to offer.

By the way, in the series he did not do well in, the bowling sides were :-

England (1946)
Bedser, Pollard, Doug Wright. Voce and Bill Bowes played one Test each but were ineffective. Bedser bowled India out almost single handedly with 24 wickets in 3 Tests.

Windies (52-53)
Frank King, Gerry Gomez, Ramadhin, Valentine and Worrell. The spinners got 51 of the 81 Indian wickets.

I am not sure he had specific problems against pacers.

 

[SJS]

First and foremost, if you replace Vishy with Hazare I would not argue. Its a toss up and many would agree to your view just as most (who saw him) would want to somehow include Vishy in the side. Gavaskar wasn't alone in thinking Vishy was a better batsman then him, many Indians of those days thought the same. On the other hand, Hazare was one of the finest batsmen in the world of his time and would not me amiss in any all time shortlist too.

I am a great fan of Hazare and have almost always included him in all time India teams although I never saw him play and saw the entire career of Vishwanath starting from watching him play in his very second Test live at Delhi's Ferozeshah Kotla.

It has been difficult to assess Hazare's game beyond his scores and the superlatives invariably used with his name by one and all. But one did not find many articles written about him by keen students of the game who were also writers. This is so because its near impossible to find older Indian cricket tours covered in a book and Indian cricketers haven't taken to great cricket writing - not cricketers of those times anyway.

Recently, I have come across a few the most precious of which is Indian Summer by John Arlott. Arlott, had been a policeman from 1934 to 1946. In that last year he joined the BBC Radio as a freelance talk producer. Almost his very first assignment was to cover the tour of the visiting Indians of 1946 for BBC's 'Eastern Services' and Home programmes. This coverage resulted in his first book. He was just 32. In 14 chapters he covers all the tour games and at the end of almost all the chapters he furnishes an essay/s on the one or two members of the visiting side. One such essay is on Hazare, then fully matured as a batsman at 31 though making his Test debut in this series. He had a modest series in England (in Tests) but in his next series in Australia (1947-48) he was to score 116 and 145 against Lindwall, Miller, Ian Johnson, Colin McCool and Ernie Toshack. The fact that India went on to lose the match by an innings underscores the value of Hazare's efforts.

This article gave me a peak at Hazare's batting slightly beyond his fabulous career stats and the superlatives one had seen associated with him. The bit on his batting is not very long and I will try and reproduce it here before I conclude this.

“Vijay Hazare, tiger hunter, all round cricketer and captain in the State Army of Baroda looks, at first encounter, none of these things. A slim man with a shy gentle smile, much averse to walking in the rain, hiding within himself at social functions, rarely speaking unless spoken to, one hand at the extreme top of the bat handle, the other at the extreme bottom pressing against the blade, the bat between the pads so that it can not be moved straight back or straight forward, the batsman’s entire weight down upon it, right shoulder pulling round to set him four square to the bowler. How can such a man with such a wrong stance, make runs?

But see him stripped, without an ounce of spare flesh, sinew and muscle sliding rhythmically – not the dragging muscle of brute strength but the fine, delicate athletic machine, carefully tended – and recognize fitness for speed. Watch the grim antagonism at the wicket when the state of the game is against his side, the watchfulness that looks for every possible subtlety in the bowling and recognize the quality of resistance. Watch that awkward stance gradually melt as his square cut finds the off side gap. Or his hook the leg side boundary, and see a batsman always difficult to dismiss, who seizes his runs as they come: taking no risk but only a tol. Modelled in his run-scoring strokes on Merchant, Hazare is never satisfied with his score, is incapable of throwing away his wicket. The century mark, the double century mark, are only milestones in an unvarying pace of scoring. Few critics will become lyrical about his batting style, but that will not worry Hazare: he is concerned with scores and is developing into a most capable machine for making them.”​

First of all let us pay a tribute to John Arlott a great cricket commentator but what a writer. What a picture he paints for us - and this is his very first of so many efforts over four decades.

Now this does not paint Hazare in a negative light but the picture that emerges is of a player in complete contrast to Vishwanath. Against the5' 8", slim, athletic Hazare ("without an ounce of spare flesh, sinew and muscle sliding rhythmically"). we have Vishy, 5' 3", slightly podgy and swaying imperceptibly from side to side as he walks to the wicket ,giving the impression that he would be more comfortable with the pads off. Against the square shouldered, crouching and awkward stance of Hazare we have the easy graceful demeanour of Vishy moving smoothly in line and stroking the ball away in the only manner in which the word 'stroking' can be best visualised. Imagine a more complete stroke player in VVS Laxman and a shorter one and you may get some idea of Vishwanath at the crease.

..... to be continued

I find that we have all been swayed considerably by Hazare's performane in 1947-48 in Australia against a fabulous attack. The fact that he played for an Indian side that was still something of a 'minnow' in world cricket, made his feats really stand out.

Vishwanath on the other hand also faced very strong attacks but his fabulous batting feats have been somewhat shadowed by his relatively poorer record away from home. Still he was one of the finest players of great fast bowling you could see. Unlike Gavaskar. who was the master of judgement of line and length and would not play any delivery he did not have to and jump on the half volley or the short delivery to score boundaries, Vishwanath would conjure strokes from good deliveries a la VVS Laxman. He was the supreme stylist.

Another big difference between him and Hazare was that he had no interest in piling up big scores just because the op[position was easy. Look at all his great innings and you will find that most of them are played in tight situations when the team is up against it. His first class batting average of 40.9 tells a story. While he averages 53 against Australia and 53.9 against West Indies.

Finally, as I have said earlier, this (my inclusion of him in my all time side) is my tribute for a fabulously gifted player whose stats do him no justice.

PS : On another occasion, I would like to include Vengsarkar, another under-rated Indian middle order batsman.

 

[aussie]

Lara is short, Ponting is too and Ponting plays the pull as well as anybody. It's not a disadvantage.

Well its a common knowledge that generall throughout history Asian batsmen have trouble playing short-pitched bowling even if the quality isn't that great.

So if we put the hypothetical scenario of India's best ever batting line-up againts other teams best ever bowling attack. Thats a weakness that would be seriously attacked.

 

[aussie]

Zaheer Khan position in the All-time XI?

How highly should he rated? His rejuvenated performances from ENG 07 to now, statistically makes him the 3rd best behind Kapil & Srinath.

So although there tends to be a bit of a soft spot towards Nissar & Amar Singh, because of the lack of quality over the years in the fast-bowling stocks. But at the same time these two blokes had great reviews by those who played with them (foreign players), so by no-means am i under-rating their ability.

But of late i am finding it hard to defend putting them ahead of Srinath & the resurgent Khan.

Opinions??

 

[ret]

tests

Sehwag
Gavaskar
Dravid
Tendulkar
Hazare
Mankad
Kapil
Kirmani / Dhoni
Amar Singh
Md Nissar
Gupte / Parsanna / Chandra


ODIs

Ganguly
Tendulkar
Sidhu
Sehwag
Dravid
Kapil
Shastri
Dhoni
Srinath
Zak/Ishant
Kumble

 

[jeevan]

I can see that vision. Such a short bloke coming up againts a hypotetical All-time great pace attack, is beginning to look suspect despite his record i guesss.

But continue to info sir..

I recall reading a biomechanical analysis that said that for batting in cricket, a short frame with an abundance of fast twitch muscles might be the ideal body type. Reason is that the limbs need to travel less, and this adds precious 100msecs to completing whatever motion was desired.

Unfortunately, cannot find an online reference to it.

 

[DaRick]

I'm constructing these teams based on the usual three seamers/one spinner combo you would probably use on most pitches, except on rank turners, where you'd usually have two seamers and two spinners. This doesn't include part-timers.

Tests:

1) Sehwag
2) Gavaskar
3) Dravid (despite his recent form slump)
4) Tendulkar
5) Hazare
6) Azharuddin
7) *Kapil Dev
8) +Engineer (a tight contest between him and Kirmani, but Engineer's batting puts him ahead)
9) Kumble
10) Srinath
11) Khan

12) Bedi (for use on turners instead of Khan)

I could've picked Dhoni instead of Engineer, but while Dhoni's keeping has improved, I don't know whether it'd be of the same quality as Kirmani's or Engineer's. Dhoni also gets to bat in an era of flatter pitches and his average is inflated a little by Bangladesh.

I did not select Vishwanath because the specialist batsmen above have better records and apparently he was a little too flamboyant sometimes.

I could've picked Prasad over Khan, for he could be more destructive, but he was too condition-reliant. He was perhaps a little unlucky to be born in India. Ghavri had a decent record, too.

I don't know who I'd pick as captain in this side. Dravid, Azharuddin and Kapil Dev could each probably do the job competently. I'll pick the man who led the team to a most unexpected World Cup (although that's a different format again).

ODI's: (applies only to those who actually played)

1) *Ganguly
2) Tendulkar
3) Dravid (one of the most technically sound players, so he goes here)
4) Azharuddin
5) Yuvraj (bats at #5 more - handy slow left-armers)
6) Jadeja (does better at #6 - handy medium-pace)
7) +Dhoni (has had success throughout the order, but I think of him as a Bevan-esque finisher)
8) Kapil Dev (not really a #8, but nowhere else to place him)
9) Harbhajan Singh (for his death bowling and ER)
10) Srinath
11) Prasad

12) Prabhakar (despite the match-fixing controversies which surrounded him, he was a decent opener and a good ODI bowler - but he's hard to place in this line-up)

 

[Har5]

Laxman

Laxman and Dravid are easily the recent best test batsmen with both of them averaging above 60 in drawn-won tests. Laxman fighting to save a test, with tail-end collapsing at the other end, was the most common sight in Indian cricket in last 10 years.

 

[bagapath]

ODIs

Ganguly
Tendulkar
Sidhu
Sehwag
Dravid
Kapil
Shastri
Dhoni
Srinath
Zak/Ishant
Kumble

takee out sidhu and bring in yuvraj singh, please.

 

[wfdu_ben91]

Text XI
Sunil Gavaskar
Virender Sehwag
Rahul Dravid
Sachin Tendulkar
Mohammad Azharuddin
VVS Laxman
Kapil Dev
Farokh Engineer (wk)
Anil Kumble
Javagal Srinath
Bishan Bedi

 

[SJS]

I cant include players like Singh and Nissar because I dont think they played enough tests.

I know. Thats a very normal and justified position but it would mean leaving out many truly greats for accidents of history. Barry Richards is an example.

In the Indian context, Nayudu Col CK also suffers from a similar problem.

Its interesting to try and make the greatest all time side from players whom we tend to ignore because they did not play enough international cricket. Here is a selection.

Most of them have great stats in their short Test careers but that is not why they are selected. They are in the list since they were considered truly greats who had shorter careers for different reasons.

Its an impressive list.

[B]Player        	Tests	Runs	50's	100's	Avg	T/50+	Wkts	5 fors	Avg	W/Test[/B]

Barry Richards	4	508	2	2	72.6	1.0				
C. Dempster	10	723	5	2	65.7	1.4				
Archie Jackson	8	474	2	1	47.4	2.7				
G. Tyldesley	14	990	6	3	55	1.6				
Duleepsinhji	12	995	5	3	58.5	1.5				
Donnelly Martin	7	582	4	1	52.9	1.4				
Herbert Hordern	7	254	1		23.1	7.0	46	5	23.4	6.6
Mike Proctor	7	226			25.11		41	1	15	5.9
Mohammad Nissar	6						25	3	28.3	4.2
Ferris JJ	9						61	6	12.7	6.8
Keith Andrews (keeper)

Because of an embarrassment of riches at the top I have the legendary Archie Jackson at number three instead of his normal opening slot.

Keith Andrews is an all time keeping great whose not playing more than the two Tests separated by a decade is one of cricket's great tragedies.

 

[bagapath]

Text XI
Sunil Gavaskar
Virender Sehwag
Rahul Dravid
Sachin Tendulkar
Mohammad Azharuddin
VVS Laxman
Kapil Dev
Farokh Engineer (wk)
Anil Kumble
Javagal Srinath
Bishan Bedi

can you please get rid of the match fixer and bring in one of vishy/ ganguly/hazare/umrigar at no. 5 please? everything else is your personal call; this one is for the integrity of the game!