Kallis Vs Sobers

[Perm]

And why can't I have an opinion about that? I genuinely think that's a possible reason why people may have overlooked his record. When you're bowling 3-4 different styles to a decent level and in some matches make a good contribution, I think people are more in awe that you were able to do so, rather than the fact that you did so consistently.

The irony is that the people arguing against me are making 101 assumptions on why he could have also been rated highly, in which it isn't reflect in his stats. I don't really understand your objection.

Because you're making a massive assumption as to how Sobers performed. Nobody has come in and suggested that Sobers has lots of catches dropped, or was unlucky with edges but they could also be viable reasons as to why his bowling average wasn't as good as you would like it to be.

People arguing for Sobers aren't making assumptions, they're drawing on information that was around during his playing days. You can't possibly tell me that every player, commentator and journalist who encountered Sobers was biased, because that would be a load of rubbish. There is a reason why these people rated him so highly, because he was the greatest all-rounder ever.

 

[Lillian Thomson]

I think it relates more to an adage regarding the company he is keeping. HB's a good lad, he shouldn't repeat your non-sense. It didn't make sense when you were saying it, it wouldn't just because he is.

So you're saying he's too stupid to have an opinion of his own so he's repeating my opinion. I'm sure he'll be flattered.

 

[weldone]

In reality, he is only a small fraction better than someone like Kallis.

Then why did you vote for Kallis in this thread?

 

[Precambrian]

Ok. Let's put an end to all this.

Kallis > Sobers.

Thank you very much all for your points.

 

[steve132]

Ok. Let's put an end to all this.

Kallis > Sobers.

Thank you very much all for your points.

Um... your side lost by 4 to 1 in this poll, and would lose by an even wider margin in any other forum (e.g. a poll of Test cricketers or journalists). What's the point of having a poll if you are not only going to ignore its result, but also declare victory by fiat?

 

[fredfertang]

Ah well .......at least Precambrian is a benign dictator

 

[Ikki]

Because you're making a massive assumption as to how Sobers performed. Nobody has come in and suggested that Sobers has lots of catches dropped, or was unlucky with edges but they could also be viable reasons as to why his bowling average wasn't as good as you would like it to be.

Assumptions? His record as a bowler is below average yet he is touted to the high heavens. I wonder if those judging merely on hearsay aren't also assuming.

People arguing for Sobers aren't making assumptions, they're drawing on information that was around during his playing days. You can't possibly tell me that every player, commentator and journalist who encountered Sobers was biased, because that would be a load of rubbish. There is a reason why these people rated him so highly, because he was the greatest all-rounder ever.

Wrong, they are making assumptions. They are making the assumption that he is the best all-rounder ever because others have said so. They aren't giving a direct account of what actually occurred.

An assumption is merely an inference or opinion; yet you're saying I have no right to have one and others do. It doesn't make an iota of sense.

You say: "There is a reason why these people rated him so highly, because he was the greatest all-rounder ever", not realising that the latter part of that sentence is merely an opinion...not a fact.

 

[Ikki]

So you're saying he's too stupid to have an opinion of his own so he's repeating my opinion. I'm sure he'll be flattered.

No, I didn't say that. You called him an idiot, I didn't. The best of people are affected sometimes by the people that surround them. Unfortunately, I think HB is going the route that you would go, rather than as pleasant and intelligible as he usually is.

 

[Ikki]

Then why did you vote for Kallis in this thread?

I voted for Kallis, as said earlier, simply to stop the the exaggeration of the poll and to give someone else a fighting chance.

 

[Evermind]

The fact that HB has lowered himself into the sewer with us lowlifes might tell you something about the utter **** that you insist on repeating.

Your title says "International Regular", but you're posting like a Mohammed Sami, fella. Why not address Ikki's points? They're well-thought out, well presented. What's the point of trolling so unpleasantly?

 

[GIMH]

Isn't this fun

 

[Lillian Thomson]

No, I didn't say that. You called him an idiot, I didn't. The best of people are affected sometimes by the people that surround them. Unfortunately, I think HB is going the route that you would go, rather than as pleasant and intelligible as he usually is.

I didn't call him anything. In fact I've never even mentioned him until you implied he follows other people's opinions instead of having one his own.

 

[weldone]

I voted for Kallis, as said earlier, simply to stop the the exaggeration of the poll and to give someone else a fighting chance.

Fair enough...I didn't know the reason for your voting for Kallis because I haven't been following this thread regularly...I too feel that Sobers>Kallis but they are definitely comparable as batting all-rounders...And also the comparison becomes very direct here as comparing batting all-rounders with bowling all-rounders is tougher...I always found it hard to compare Sobers, Miller and Imran for that reason...However, I keep Sobers in my all-time XI solely for his batting, not because he adds value to the team as a part-time bowler...

 

[Slifer]

Me too. In a n all time team, Sobers would be more of a part time bowler. My all time team being:

Hobbs
Gavaskar
Don
G Chappell
IVAR
Sobers
Gilchrist
Imran
Hadlee
Marshall
Mcgrath

 

[zaremba]

Me too. In a n all time team, Sobers would be more of a part time bowler. My all time team being:

Hobbs
Gavaskar
Don
G Chappell
IVAR
Sobers
Gilchrist
Imran
Hadlee
Marshall
Mcgrath

Greg Chappell in an all-time world XI? I'm not saying you're wrong, but it's a big call.

 

[Ikki]

I didn't call him anything. In fact I've never even mentioned him until you implied he follows other people's opinions instead of having one his own.

You said that by my lumping him with you meant that I considered him an idiot - which was far from my intention, so no one even brought it up till you did. I said HB, who is usually very neutral and dispassionate enough so as not to insult, was sounding like you. Let it go. This is a stupid digression.

 

[Lillian Thomson]

Your title says "International Regular", but you're posting like a Mohammed Sami, fella. Why not address Ikki's points? They're well-thought out, well presented. What's the point of trolling so unpleasantly?

Where are the well thought out points?
It really is very simple. No one is objecting to the crude number crunching just because it happens to involve a great cricketer like Sobers.
There are a number of things that stats don’t (and can’t) take into account, for example:
Weather condition
Ground and pitch conditions
Strength of opposition
Strength of own team
How well the opposition play on the day
Each unique match situation
Dropped catches
Umpiring errors
The role of the individual within the team
The fielding standards and performance of both sides
Each player’s individual career is totally unique and the list of things that can’t be determined by stats goes on forever and there isn’t a formula that can factor any of these things in.

 

[Ikki]

Each player's career is unique...which is why we got the standard of Sobers' contemporaries throughout his career. Little differences here and there, sure. Still, Sobers falls short, and that's the problem. Not by a little but by quite some way. Pretty much all the above variables are taken into account when we look at all the other players of his time because they face the same opposition, on the same pitches, etc.

There are times when maybe an inferior opposition with an inferior batsman just happens to do awesomely against Sobers/Windies, but those things are uncommon and when looking at a career spanning 20 years are very unlikely to affect the overall picture.

 

[Lillian Thomson]

Each player's career is unique...which is why we got the standard of Sobers' contemporaries throughout his career. Little differences here and there, sure. Still, Sobers falls short, and that's the problem. Not by a little but by quite some way. Pretty much all the above variables are taken into account when we look at all the other players of his time because they face the same opposition, on the same pitches, etc.

There are times when maybe an inferior opposition with an inferior batsman just happens to do awesomely against Sobers/Windies, but those things are uncommon and when looking at a career spanning 20 years are very unlikely to affect the overall picture.

Sober's contemporaries are not Sober's and none of their careers mirrored his in any way - completely irrelevant comparisons.

The second paragraph is pure supposition based on nothing.

 

[Ikki]

Sober's contemporaries are not Sober's and none of their careers mirrored his in any way - completely irrelevant comparisons.

The second paragraph is pure supposition based on nothing.

They don't have to mirror his career. That's like saying...because no other player had exactly the same career as Nasser Hussain we can't compare him with anybody else. Therefore, if I think he is the greatest cricketer of all time, you can't prove me wrong. It doesn't matter that Tendulkar/Lara scored more and against better opposition, at a better rate, etc, because they don't mirror Hussain's experience in Test cricket.

We are comparing all the other bowlers with Sobers who at the time will have faced the same conditions and the same sides. Now, of course, conditions can change slightly and some sides may play better or worse than they normally do, however it's unlikely - in fact, you'd have to show examples to even suggest this - that those variables changed to such a drastic extent that it makes Sobers' career comparison with others unfair. Because it also has to occur often enough for it to affect his career figures in any meaningful way.

The irony is that my "supposition" details the kind of scenario that would make your point make any sense. Such scenarios do not occur often and hence will not affect a career of 20 years much when seen as a whole.