BoyBrumby
Englishman
Would agree with that. I personally suspect batting Fred at 6 is as much about pandering to the Flintoff ego as anything else. Of the two players I know who looks more of a test batsman currently and it ain't Freddie.
-
Welcome to the Cricket Web forums, one of the biggest forums in the world dedicated to cricket.
You are currently viewing our boards as a guest which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our free community you will have access to post topics, respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free so please, join the Cricket Web community today!
If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us.
*Official* England in West Indies
- Thread starter Richard
- Start date
Woodster
International Captain
Yes Prior does the more accomplished batsman. Changing Prior and Flintoff around represents perfectly good sense to me, Prior is more likely to play the longer innings and reach three figures on a more consistent basis, therefore he should be given more of an opportunity to bat with a specialist batsman that is hopefully 'set'.
On the other hand, Flintoff will play a number of innings with the tail, and at times it is these situations that force Freddie into his attacking positive cricket, which is when he looks his best (providing he has taken some time to get in). The pressure eases a little when he is batting with the bowlers and he becomes a dangerous man at the crease.
Jigga988
State 12th Man
Agree with the Freddy bit, he is definitely more threatening to the Windies batting with the tail, but I reckon the more we see of Prior the more we'll figure him out, lets be honest, we bowled poorly to him in the first innigns, if we can cramp him up then we have a chance at getting him... me thinks England's batting line up is looking quite weak atm... With Strauss and Cook having technical troubles, and with Shah playing his first test in a long long time, Colly not being able to get the ball off the square and the first sign of him trying to gets him out, and with Prior at 6... there's definitely been better England line ups in the past...
GIMH
Norwood's on Fire
Have you watched him bowl?
Evermind
International Debutant
Yes. Flintoff is a very good all-rounder, but I can't think of anyone more massively overrated in international cricket ATM. At least Mendis has stats to back him up. Flintoff's lack of stats has been excused and rationalised so many times and on so many fronts it's starting to look a little empty.
As for Tremlett, he never impressed me. I think he's generally a lukewarm presence, unlike Harmison who on his day can be a world-beater. Plus, Tremlett's fielding is absolutely piss, and his batting's pretty average too.
GIMH
Norwood's on Fire
Look, Flintoff isn't a prolific wicket-taker, and never will be. But to say he's "not a real bowler" is nothing short of ridiculous, and I can't see how he's overrated. If you asked people on this forum to pick a world XI, they'd probs pick him and bat him at 8, have a spinner and two out and out strike bowlers in the side.
I'd be interested in hearing the top international batsmen telling me what they think of facing Flintoff and whether his stats are all that important tbf
I'd be interested in hearing the top international batsmen telling me what they think of facing Flintoff and whether his stats are all that important tbf
Evermind
International Debutant
I agree that it's ridiculous to say that "he's not a real bowler". On his day he can be murderously good. And considering the state of all-rounders in cricket ATM, I have little doubt that many would pick him in their team (of course Kallis >>>>>>>>>>>>> Flintoff so they'd want to have 2 all-rounders in their team for that).
But he's always been so hyped-up by the English press. And in all fairness, I can't remember any of his performances past 2005. He might be "fearsome" to face, but so would the Great Khali with a cricket ball in his hand, so it's neither here nor there, is it?
Goughy
Hall of Fame Member
That is interesting.
The amazing thing about Flintoff is that he is in his 12th year in Test cricket and has only had 2 good years with the ball.
I think those that claim he is 'all-world' as a bowler need to back it up with more than just "well watch him".
I love him to bits but there is a reason for his relative lack of success compared to his status. I dont know what it is but it certainly exists.
He changes the atmosphere of a game and generates electricity and excitement, but how much does he change the game itself? Its a relevant question.
I dont buy the stock bowler excuse either. Plenty of quicks combine overs and wickets.
Im trying to remain neutral in this despite being an England fan. He is an exciting and skilled cricketer that looks the part and bowls at 90 mph. However, does that automatically equate to production?
Last edited:
GIMH
Norwood's on Fire
That's a strange analogy though hey. The reason batsmen don't like facing Flintoff is because he is a good bowler (I didn't say "fearsome" tbf).
You might not be able to remember any performances from him post-2005, yet most people who watched will tell you he was bloody brilliant in India 2006 (as captain, also did well with the bat). He bowled marvellously in pakistan late 05 as well (yes, that's still 2005 but I am taking the liberty of assuming you mean since the Ashes).
Since then, he's not played a lot of Test cricket, yet who can forget his brilliant bowling in his second Test back against South Africa last summer? I will never forget getting home on a Thursday evening and watching one of the greatest spells of bowling from an Englishman this century, every ball looked like it was going to do something, and his duel with Kallis was like nothing else. Sure it would be great if he could do that all the time, but when he does bowl like that, there is nobody else playing capable of it IMO
And he really doesn't get that much hype in the English press these days. Cricket stories are a good bashing opportunity most of the time.
When he wins us back the Ashes in the summer, then he'll be hyped up in the press
You might not be able to remember any performances from him post-2005, yet most people who watched will tell you he was bloody brilliant in India 2006 (as captain, also did well with the bat). He bowled marvellously in pakistan late 05 as well (yes, that's still 2005 but I am taking the liberty of assuming you mean since the Ashes).
Since then, he's not played a lot of Test cricket, yet who can forget his brilliant bowling in his second Test back against South Africa last summer? I will never forget getting home on a Thursday evening and watching one of the greatest spells of bowling from an Englishman this century, every ball looked like it was going to do something, and his duel with Kallis was like nothing else. Sure it would be great if he could do that all the time, but when he does bowl like that, there is nobody else playing capable of it IMO
And he really doesn't get that much hype in the English press these days. Cricket stories are a good bashing opportunity most of the time.
When he wins us back the Ashes in the summer, then he'll be hyped up in the press
Richard
Cricket Web Staff Member
I've obviously gone past the last 1807 posts in this thread, but the Second Test starts tomorrow and I'd quite like to start posting in it again, so I'll just say... jolly fine bowling from Jerome Taylor in the second-innings at Sabina to turn what was a very close-run thing into a cakewalk. England's batting was poor but nowhere near as diabolical as it's been painted in some places. That sort of thing happens from time to time and they're still perfectly capable of winning the series, and if they do it'll just be regarded as a blip. However, West Indies are also perfectly capable of winning the series and if they do that'll be far more of a downer on England than that one innings was. And yes, it's remarkable how similar the game was to the Sabina Test of 2004, I was thinking that midway through day-three. Shame I wasn't on CW to post "and I wonder if England will repeat West Indies' implosion on day-four", because I did think it. It'd have been regarded as prophetic, given the Greigy and Marsh-Lillee standards around here.
I wonder how much hand-wringing there's been from England fans and how much celebrating from Camps and Rose? CBA looking TBH.
I wonder how much hand-wringing there's been from England fans and how much celebrating from Camps and Rose? CBA looking TBH.
Jigga988
State 12th Man
Was watching Liverpool at the time and my dad comes in and goes
'you watching the West Indies'
and I'm like 'no... why whats going on?'
'Well, it's over,'
'Dam, I wasn't expecting rain..'
'Rain... haha, we whooped England... they are 51 all out'
'Hahahahahahhahaahaahaa sweeeeet....'
Then Liverpool scored the third against Pompey and it was a brilliant all round day for my teams
'you watching the West Indies'
and I'm like 'no... why whats going on?'
'Well, it's over,'
'Dam, I wasn't expecting rain..'
'Rain... haha, we whooped England... they are 51 all out'
'Hahahahahahhahaahaahaa sweeeeet....'
Then Liverpool scored the third against Pompey and it was a brilliant all round day for my teams
Richard
Cricket Web Staff Member
Ah, was gonna say - good thing.
I was getting steadily more drunk as the collapse progressed - fortunately it was a mate's bday night in-then-out (we were going to stay in to the COP, but that plan soon changed - to in until 10) so I couldn't be too downcast.
andruid
Cricketer Of The Year
You thought about reading through that!?
Richard
Cricket Web Staff Member
Nah, faaaaaaaaaaaaar too daunting a task. 50 or so consecutive posts in a thread is about the tops I can do (apart from when it's a read-only job, like the 2005 Ashes thread). So if a thread has more than that where I've not posted in the meantime, I just leave it.
Flem274*
123/5
The only thing i don't like about Taylor doing well is now Jigga has a shred of evidence that he's better than O'Brilliant. 
Though you could definitely say WI batting>>>>>>>>>>Englands atm...
To remedy this I think we need to play a test at Wellington with a greentop for the Indian series. O'Brilliant can bowl with the wind at his back and he can leap past Taylor again.
Taylor=gun though.
Though you could definitely say WI batting>>>>>>>>>>Englands atm...
To remedy this I think we need to play a test at Wellington with a greentop for the Indian series. O'Brilliant can bowl with the wind at his back and he can leap past Taylor again.
Taylor=gun though.
GIMH
Norwood's on Fire
Should go through and to the biggest multi-quote ever IMO
Richard
Cricket Web Staff Member
You could, but I'm not sure I'd agree. For one, it was Taylor's bowling that made England's batting look diabolical, not the other way around (and I realise it wouldn't be exactly the other way around).
For another, Strauss, Cook, Bell, Pietersen, Collingwood > Gayle, Devon Smith, Sarwan, Marshall (
) and Chanderpaul. Prior's batting >>> Ramdin's too. Full credit to WI's batting for outperforming England's the previous game and all, but England's batting unit is far more proven and reasonable expectation would be that it'd perform much better over a longer period (ie, the 6 matches penned between these teams in the next few months). Whether that comes to pass, we wait to see.
Woodster
International Captain
Was having this same debate on my way in to work the other day with a friend. We were discussing why Freddie has failed to take many more 5 wicket hauls. He thought it was down the old stock bowler adage, but like you Goughy, don't really buy that myself. There certainly are spells when he holds back on his pace and just attempts to build pressure from one end, but he should still be capable of picking up wickets.
I think there is something in the length he bowls, especially to lesser batsmen, he needs to forget his back of a length bowling, and get it right up there, risking a couple of drives, but generally he'll be too good for them. I'm not sure, just a suggestion.