***Official*** South Africa In Australia

[Savvy Saffer]

Oh dear, another one that just doesnt get it

Firstly, Johnson is (aside from Tait) consistently the quickest bowler in the world. That, in itself, is enough to cause any batsman discomfort as they only have a fraction of a second to make up their minds to play

Secondly, he's left handed and his natural ball is a leg-cutter to the right-hander

Thirdly, that combination is INCREDIBLY rare and so batsmen are just not used to it

Fourthly, when Johnson lures someone into playing a poor shot, it's Johnson who is crap yet when Steyn gets wickets with near wides, he's good despite the fact he's slower and righthanded (i.e. nothing that people havent seen before)

Johnson is not any quicker than Steyn. The spell that Steyn bowled after lunch on day 1 was quick as any that Johnson has bowled. The problem with Johnson is that is his only weapon. Steyn is 2 bowlers into one. His is first and foremost a swing bowler at 140 - 145 km/h and if there is no swing or bowling to tailenders he cranks it up to 150 km/h. Johnson is an old ball workhorse who would run in the whole day and bowl at 145 - 150 km/h which is admirable but class bowlers can get wickets even if they bowl at 135 - 140 km/h. Dennis Lillee and Jeff Thompson are good examples. Lillee used a combination of pace, swing, seam and cut to get his wickets. Thompson just tried to bowl as fast as possible. No question who the better bowler was.

Sorry but Johnson wont be able to sustain his action and with his history of serious injuries well..

 

[social]

How then can you explain the average differential of over 8 points? Not to mention Steyn's success everywhere except perhaps England?

Did I say Johnson was better than Steyn?

However, I'm amazed at the criticism of Johnson

 

[social]

Johnson is not any quicker than Steyn. The spell that Steyn bowled after lunch on day 1 was quick as any that Johnson has bowled. The problem with Johnson is that is his only weapon. Steyn is 2 bowlers into one. His is first and foremost a swing bowler at 140 - 145 km/h and if there is no swing or bowling to tailenders he cranks it up to 150 km/h. Johnson is an old ball workhorse who would run in the whole day and bowl at 145 - 150 km/h which is admirable but class bowlers can get wickets even if they bowl at 135 - 140 km/h. Dennis Lillee and Jeff Thompson are good examples. Lillee used a combination of pace, swing, seam and cut to get his wickets. Thompson just tried to bowl as fast as possible. No question who the better bowler was.

Sorry but Johnson wont be able to sustain his action and with his history of serious injuries well..

150 >>>>>>> 145

Settle down Saffie but Steyn is a short, slippery bowler but not great bowler with bugger all support

 

[susudear]

150 kmph

150 >>>>>>> 145

Settle down Saffie but Steyn is a short, slippery bowler but not great bowler with bugger all support

I speed was the only criteria, then Akthar should be the world's best fast bowler.

Get a grip, it's not as if Steyn is incapable of bowling at 150 kmph. He worked his pace all the way upto it today. But he understands the value of swing and the basics over raw pace, and knows he can sustain his momentum at around 145 kmph.

Johnson has only two balls besides the bouncer to right handers. One 2 feet outside the off stump, the other one into the pads/hips. Sensible batsmen waits for Johnson to bowl repeatedly outside off stump and then scores off the pads.

 

[Savvy Saffer]

I speed was the only criteria, then Akthar should be the world's best fast bowler.

Get a grip, it's not as if Steyn is incapable of bowling at 150 kmph. He worked his pace all the way upto it today. But he understands the value of swing and the basics over raw pace, and knows he can sustain his momentum at around 145 kmph.

Johnson has only two balls besides the bouncer to right handers. One 2 feet outside the off stump, the other one into the pads/hips. Sensible batsmen waits for Johnson to bowl repeatedly outside off stump and then scores off the pads.

I could'nt have said it better myself

 

[JBH001]

With regard to Johnson, I have not been able to watch much of the summer series' (barring the occassional session) due to university studies, but it seems to me that his problem from last summer (where I did watch most of the cricket) namely the seam release is still a problem - if not as bad. Any swing he does get seems to be of the Malinga variety, that is a product of his somewhat round arm and slingy action, and not a result of good wrist position and an upright seam all the way down the pitch. But having only watched a little of the cricket, I dont know if this remains a consistent problem for him, or if he has fixed this issue as I have not seen enough of him this summer to decide - although the nature of his action may make fixing it permanently difficult.

From the previous posts it sounds like he still does not really swing (or even consistently seam) the ball, and depends more on his speed and angle of attack for his wickets. If so, he is likely to be a short term fixture in the Australian side, probably gone in the next 3 years.

 

[GIMH]

Just watching some highlights, poor fielding from the saffies it seems

 

[oldmancraigy]

How then can you explain the average differential of over 8 points? Not to mention Steyn's success everywhere except perhaps England?

over 8 points difference?

Try 5.5 points.

It's still in Steyn's favour - but Johnsons 28 average is certainly a good one.

Steyn was the leading wicket taker last year with 74 - but let's not forget that Johnson picked up 63 (to be 3rd on that list) - and for Johnson that was his first year of international cricket.

Interesting to note that in this series, under similar conditions, Steyn is averaging 24.17 (17 wickets) and Johnson 26.92 (13 wickets) - with Johnson being the more accurate and economical bowler.

Not suggesting Johnson is better, but to try and write him off and suggest that he's not a top line bowler on the world scene is a tad foolish...

As far as Johnson's "all-round" credentials - well, he's a quality number 8 - averaging 25 with 2 half centuries in 22 innings. He has a good forward defence and plays all the shots well - there's every reason to believe that he'll pile on plenty of runs as his career progresses, and looking at him, there's no reason he couldn't average 30 in test cricket (140 runs in his next 3 innings will get him there). The fact that he's been batting 9 or 10 for Australia until this test has hampered the time he has to score runs as he has run out of partners on 6 occasions (of his 22 innings...)

His bowling average will come down and his batting average up - why can't he be a 30 batting and 27 bowling guy at the end of his career?

 

[JBH001]

Good points regarding his batting. Perhaps he will last longer than than the 3 years or so I think he will. Although that said, I still doubt he will be an adequate number 6 - more likely a quick bowling version of Vettori at number 8. There is a huge difference between a number 6 or number 7 who is expected to score 50s and 100s, and a good number 8 who is expected to contribute 20s and 30s and the occassional 50 (and who might also benefit from an inflated average based on not outs).

Edit/ Also a 5.5 average differential is significant. And far more than that is that Steyn has a far greater strike rate. Something like 38 to 57.

 

[Woodster]

Interesting comparisons going on here between Mitchell Johnson and Dale Steyn. Johnson is probably consistently the fastest bowler in international cricket right now, I am not saying that necessarily makes him a good bowler, but it is certainly a factor that batsman will be aware of when they're out in the middle. His release does not suggest he will particularly successful at swinging the ball back into the right handers, his natural shape is across the right-hander with his natural cut he puts on the ball helping it slant across them. While swinging it into the right-hander does not currently seem an option, he can still cause plenty of problems with pure pace, aggression, and accuracy. I'm not saying he'll be Australia's bowling saviour, but there is plenty to be positive about for Johnson, before we look at his steadily improving batting.

Dale Steyn has had a fantastic last 18 months or so, and there probably is no other Test bowler that can match him at the minute. He bowls at a very impressive pace, is genuinely athletic, and gets some decent outswing, and late.

Tough to say who will the best bowler in the long term, but Steyn is certainly setting the standards.

 

[IndGunner]

Can i just ask you guys (sorry if its really stupid) would anyone consider Ntini and Johnson to have similar bowling styles? i know ones right and the others left but the seem to bowl that awkward angle. is it just me that thinks they are similar in the lengths they bowl?

 

[howardj]

Looking forward to handing down my end of series report cards in a few days time.

 

[Uppercut]

Interesting to note that in this series, under similar conditions, Steyn is averaging 24.17 (17 wickets) and Johnson 26.92 (13 wickets) - with Johnson being the more accurate and economical bowler.

Should note there that this is Johnson's best series yet, and not Steyn's.

Anyhow, I'd say Steyn will end up the better bowler retrospectively (although obviously i can't be sure) because Johnson is somewhat limited at the moment to being a semi-defensive bowler when facing right-handers due to his inability to effectively attack the stumps. I presume that's why Ponting doesn't like him opening the bowling, a decision i completely agree with.

 

[superkingdave]

Talking about Johnson's batting, he hits the ball so cleanly but he seems (everytime i've seen which isn't much admittedly (the only substantial innings have been two of the tests last year against India and this series)) to hit the ball in the air a lot and play 'stand and deliver' a lot and neglect to move his feet. Unless he changes that, imo, he'll stay as a bowler who can bat a bit. To date he hasn't shown that much potential to go on with starts and always seems to have a let off or a close call down the line. What is his highest score in the pura cup?

Think he might end up like broad (though he's obviously massively superior with the ball) with the bat, as i can't see Broad ever becoming more than a decent lower order player either.

He actually reminded me of a left handed Alex Tudor with some of his shots today

 

[Johnners]

Johnson picks up the Alan McGilvary Medal for 2008, WAG

 

[oldmancraigy]

Should note there that this is Johnson's best series yet, and not Steyn's.

Except for the series against NZ - where Johson took 14 wickets at 11.00?

And he's only played in 6 series.

Not to mention 11 of his 18 tests have been against the Indians and South Africans...

I'm not suggesting Johnson is a better bowler - I agree that, when we look back on their careers, we'll be saying Steyn was the better bowler.

But to say Steyn is better doesn't mean that one needs to say 'Johnson is rubbish'. He's also a quality bowler on the world level.

As for swinging the ball - it can be a tad over-rated. Sure, it would make Johnson damn near unplayable if he could swing it, but he doesn't, he relies on consistent line, sharp pace and bounce, and a slower, cutting ball to attack the stumps.

Just ask Glen McGrath (aka the most succesful fast bowler of all time) how important it is to swing the ball. All he did was bowl it on a length his whole career.

 

[oldmancraigy]

To date he hasn't shown that much potential to go on with starts and always seems to have a let off or a close call down the line. What is his highest score in the pura cup?

It's hard to accurately judge his batting because he's a guy who didn't play much Sheffield Shield (Pura Cup). Apart from Tests, he's only batted 34 times in first class contests, and some of those were hitouts on the Windies and Indian tours. He's notched 4 50s in those games, with his highest score being 54.

So it doesn't look fantastic at that level, but bear in mind that he's been low in the order for Queensland (hasn't played for WA yet), coming in at 10 with little time to build an innings. (stuck behind Bichel and Noffke - who are useful lower order batsmen with seniority nad first class centuries under their belts). Which makes his 4 half centuries slightly more impressive - he's been left not out 10 times in those 34 first class innings...

So there is certainly an ability to score runs there, as far as a 'big innings' goes - I think he has the strokes to make a century, has he the temperament? If his batting against S.Af is any indication, he certainly does.

He's growing as a batsman and looks to have cemented that Australian number 8 spot.

 

[Johnners]

Johnson!!!

 

[Uppercut]

Except for the series against NZ - where Johson took 14 wickets at 11.00?

And he's only played in 6 series.

Not to mention 11 of his 18 tests have been against the Indians and South Africans...

I'm not suggesting Johnson is a better bowler - I agree that, when we look back on their careers, we'll be saying Steyn was the better bowler.

But to say Steyn is better doesn't mean that one needs to say 'Johnson is rubbish'. He's also a quality bowler on the world level.

As for swinging the ball - it can be a tad over-rated. Sure, it would make Johnson damn near unplayable if he could swing it, but he doesn't, he relies on consistent line, sharp pace and bounce, and a slower, cutting ball to attack the stumps.

Just ask Glen McGrath (aka the most succesful fast bowler of all time) how important it is to swing the ball. All he did was bowl it on a length his whole career.

Few things- two matches isn't a series in my book. You don't need to swing the ball to be a success of course, but the improvement an inswinger would make to Johnson's game is absolutely huge. Even if he only bowled it once per innings, it would draw batsmen into playing defensive shots they didn't need to play so, so much more than they already do.

McGrath did move the ball around quite a bit, off the seam mainly but also in the air to an extent. And he got a lot of extra bounce, that's often overlooked. It's folly to say McGrath had nothing other than his accuracy.

The easiest improvement for Johnson to make is probably in going around the wicket more often and more effectively. He could be almost unplayable if he masters that area of his game.

 

[Jono]

"Was that a one hand job" - Richie Benaud