Ricky Ponting Vs. Sachin Tendulkar - As Captains

[susudear]

Can be argued

Not Pontingesque, but still very impressive.

It can be argued that he faced much better attacks.

 

[Jono]

Indeed. Plus at the time was often carrying the team (particularly in his first stint).

 

[susudear]

And with hardly any "Grooming"

Indeed. Plus at the time was often carrying the team (particularly in his first stint).

He was made captain at 23, without any sort of "grooming" as we see nowadays. And yes, he almost always was a one-man act, likely to be seen during the rest of Ponting;s captaincy, a glimpse of what we saw at MCG.

 

[Rant0r]

so i guess you feel clarke and hussey aren't up to the same standards ?

 

[susudear]

No

so i guess you feel clarke and hussey aren't up to the same standards ?

Hussay and Clarke are no way as good as Ponting's been.

 

[Rant0r]

hussey's run is over ? or just not in the same class ?

 

[Ikki]

Gavaskar had atleast one world class fast bowler on his side, and the comparisons really don't match up. I personally think that while Tendulkar was never the kind of man-manager that Ganguly was, he did a reasonably good job as captain, especially with the resources he had.

Anyway Ponting of today has much better resources than Tendulkar did, and is he doing a good job?

Tendulkar had a better batting line-up, with namely Azhurradin and Dravid around him, also with Srinath and Kumble bowling. I'd say that was better.

Ponting is in a tough position. His side was almost perfect for most of the time he was captain, so do you (not you susudear, I am talking out to the general board here) give him any credit for that? Or is it a lose-lose situation for him? No credit because you're team is so good and a lot of the blame when most of the same team fails? Harsh if you ask me.

I wouldn't say Ponting is a genius (and I'll address Ponting because I think the thread is mostly about him) but I generally think professionals know much much more about what is going on, whether it be tactics or the team situation. I hate judging these kinds of things because no one really knows how much input any one person has or how that has affected the team (positively or negatively) and no one knows really the full extent of why certain choices were made or the amount of decision making power Ponting has to make at his own discretion on or off the field. Ponting's little leaks in a few recent interviews have given me a bit of doubt that the team is as much in his control as it probably should be or that he is not completely in sync with the other decision makers.

 

[susudear]

Good couple of years

hussey's run is over ? or just not in the same class ?

Hussey had a couple of very good years mainly due to the fact that he played all his test cricket in Australia, against attacks which were inferior to Shield quality. This is the first year he's done some real touring, and the averages have plummetted. He is no way in the league of Ponting, and is over-rated due to his numbers.

 

[silentstriker]

Haha, Srinath.

 

[susudear]

Tendulkar had a better batting line-up, with namely Azhurradin and Dravid around him, also with Srinath and Kumble bowling. I'd say that was better.

Ponting is in a tough position. His side was almost perfect for most of the time he was captain, so do you (not you susudear, I am talking out to the general board here) give him any credit for that? Or is it a lose-lose situation for him? No credit because you're team is so good and a lot of the blame when most of the same team fails? Harsh if you ask me.

I wouldn't say Ponting is a genius (and I'll address Ponting because I think the thread is mostly about him) but I generally think professionals know much much more about what is going on, whether it be tactics or the team situation. I hate judging these kinds of things because no one really knows how much input any one person has or how that has affected the team (positively or negatively) and no one knows really the full extent of why certain choices were made or the amount of decision making power Ponting has to make at his own discretion on or off the field. Ponting's little leaks in a few recent interviews have given me a bit of doubt that the team is as much in his control as it probably should be or that he is completely in sync with the other decision makers.

Azharuddin, probably. But his commitment wasn't enough as shown by his role in matchfixing. Dravid was never himself till 99-00. Kumble was good at home, mediocre outside, and Srinath was perhaps the only decent seamer. That meant the team carried a lot of bad to mediocre players (Kanitkar, Prasad, Deepdas Gupta, Devang Gandhi) who were hardly county class, not to mention international class. The presence of these fillers ensured that much of the good work done by Tendulkar himself with perhaps Srinath and Kumble were erased.

Also note that out of the 9 defeats during Tendulkar's captaincy, 4 were in Australia, the worst place for such a poor team to tour, against a peaking Australia.

 

[Ikki]

Haha, Srinath.

You don't think Srinath was good? Probably India's 2nd greatest paceman, or even bowler.

 

[susudear]

Lol

You don't think Srinath was good? Probably India's 2nd greatest paceman, or even bowler.

Doesnt make him anywhere near the best in the world during that time. Indian bowling has been traditionally so dire that they do not have a bowler who has taken 50+ test wickets @ less than 29.

 

[Ikki]

Azharuddin, probably. But his commitment wasn't enough as shown by his role in matchfixing. Dravid was never himself till 99-00. Kumble was good at home, mediocre outside, and Srinath was perhaps the only decent seamer. That meant the team carried a lot of bad to mediocre players (Kanitkar, Prasad, Deepdas Gupta, Devang Gandhi) who were hardly county class, not to mention international class. The presence of these fillers ensured that much of the good work done by Tendulkar himself with perhaps Srinath and Kumble were erased.

Also note that out of the 9 defeats during Tendulkar's captaincy, 4 were in Australia, the worst place for such a poor team to tour, against a peaking Australia.

Come on dude, Dravid was averaging almost 50 in 34 tests before the turn of the century. Kumble was only good at home? That goes for pretty much every spinner Gavaskar had at the time too. Gavaskar had a few good spinners and Dev. Probably better than what Tendulkar had but not substantially different. But the batting line-up probably has a bigger difference. Gavaskar, Amarnath, Vengsarkar, Viswanath vs. Tendulkar, Dravid, Ganguly, Azhurradin, Laxman. And, really, Gavaskar's line-up was pretty poor away from home, aside from Amarnath who is a bit of a freak in that regard, and Tendulkar's line-up actually do better a tiny bit better away.

 

[Ikki]

Doesnt make him anywhere near the best in the world during that time. Indian bowling has been traditionally so dire that they do not have a bowler who has taken 50+ test wickets @ less than 29.

I am not comparing Indian bowlers with International bowlers, am I?

 

[susudear]

Yes

I am not comparing Indian bowlers with International bowlers, am I?

The comparison is between the resources Tendulkar had and Ponting had.

 

[susudear]

Dravid under Tendulkar

Come on dude, Dravid was averaging almost 50 in 34 tests before the turn of the century. Kumble was only good at home? That goes for pretty much every spinner Gavaskar had at the time too. Gavaskar had a few good spinners and Dev. Probably better than what Tendulkar had but not substantially different. But the batting line-up probably has a bigger difference. Gavaskar, Amarnath, Vengsarkar, Viswanath vs. Tendulkar, Dravid, Ganguly, Azhurradin, Laxman. And, really, Gavaskar's line-up was pretty poor away from home, aside from Amarnath who is a big of a freak in that regard, and Tendulkar's line-up actually do better away a tiny bit better away.

Dravid averaged 41 under Tendulkar. He did not come good till 2000, before which Tendulkar relinquished captaincy for good.

And 6 out of the 9 tests India lost under Tendulkar were away from home, (4 in Australia, 2 in South Africa), where the only matchwinning bowler Kumble was rendered impotent.

 

[Ikki]

The comparison is between the resources Tendulkar had and Ponting had.

No, the comparison I was talking with SS about is between what Tendulkar had and what Gavaskar had, quite clearly.

Dravid averaged 41 under Tendulkar. He did not come good till 2000, before which Tendulkar relinquished captaincy for good.

And 6 out of the 9 tests India lost under Tendulkar were away from home, (4 in Australia, 2 in South Africa), where the only matchwinning bowler Kumble was rendered impotent.

And that could have had nothing to do with Tendulkar himself? Captains aren't supposed to allow for their players to play better (tactic-wise) or instill in them the belief (man-management)? All-over, Dravid averaged almost 50 before 2000 (which is when you said he "became" a batsman. He averages 55 without Tendulkar as captain and he averages 58 in the 1990s without Tendulkar as captain.

 

[susudear]

Best batsmen and bowlers during Tendulkar's and Ponting's captaincy

The vast difference in the resources they had to work with is obvious from these tables.

Best batsmen under Tendulkar (Minimum 500 test runs)

Player		Mat	Runs	 Ave	100	50
NS Sidhu	9	720	 55.38 	3	1
SR Tendulkar	25	2054	 51.35 	7	7
M Azharuddin	18	1135	 45.40 	6	3
SC Ganguly	23	1505	 41.80 	4	7
R Dravid	25	1659	 41.47 	2	10
VVS Laxman 	12	526	 27.68 	1	3

Best batsmen under Ponting (Min 500 runs)

Player		Mat	Runs	Ave	100	50
MEK Hussey	33	2834	 59.04 	9	13
RT Ponting	52	4876	 58.74 	17	22
BJ Hodge	6	503	 55.88 	1	2
JL Langer	30	2403	 48.06 	6	8
PA Jaques	11	902	 47.47 	3	6
ML Hayden	48	3843	 46.30 	13	14
MJ Clarke	40	2508	 45.60 	8	10
DR Martyn	24	1624	 45.11 	6	7
DS Lehmann	8	563	 43.30 	2	3
A Symonds	26	1462	 40.61 	2	10
AC Gilchrist	41	2134	 40.26 	7	9
SM Katich	24	1569	 40.23 	5	7

During Tendulkar era, India had just 5 batsmen averaging over 40 and the sixth best batsman averaged 27, and just 2 over 50. During Ponting era, they had 12 batsmen averaging above 40.

Now the bowlers.

Best bowlers under Sachin Tendulkar (Min 20 wickets)

Player		Mat	Wkts	Ave	Econ	SR	5	10
J Srinath	17	71	 29.15 	 3.03 	 57.50 	3	0
SB Joshi	10	26	 31.42 	 2.40 	 78.30 	0	0
A Kumble	25	97	 33.61 	 2.53 	 79.60 	6	1
A Kuruvilla	10	25	 35.68 	 3.03 	 70.60 	1	0
BKV Prasad	20	53	 38.52 	 3.00 	 77.00 	4	1

A single bowler who averaged above 30, and that too just.

Best bowlers under Ponting

Player		Mat	Wkts	Ave	Econ	SR	5	10
GD McGrath	25	115	 21.69 	 2.49 	 52.20 	5	0
SR Clark	22	90	 22.96 	 2.54 	 54.00 	2	0
SK Warne	34	200	 24.34 	 2.97 	 49.10 	13	4
MG Johnson	17	74	 28.58 	 3.04 	 56.30 	2	1
SCG MacGill	14	61	 29.98 	 3.51 	 51.10 	3	0
B Lee		39	171	 30.12 	 3.37 	 53.50 	6	0
JN Gillespie	18	52	 32.61 	 2.94 	 66.30 	0	0
MS Kasprowicz	17	52	 32.84 	 3.27 	 60.20 	1	0
A Symonds	26	24	 37.33 	 2.56 	 87.20 	0	0

5 bowlers averaging under 30, and two of them absolute legends with 315 test wickets among them in 25 matches together.

Tendulkar had to command a ship that was near sunk, and had to bear the most burden. Ponting did not have to.

 

[Chimpdaddy]

I don't know who is better between Ponting and Tendulkar in terms of captaincy. But IMO, neither of them are great captains. If you have a side that had Warne, McGrath, and Lee as your bowling attack, you've got a great side. Australian batting was phenomenal back then too. The point being, Ponting did not have to do much to win. So to look at his win/draw/loss record with regards to his captaincy is not a fair enough judgement.
However, when those bowling resources are depleted he has fallen apart. He might try to odd over with Clarke or Symonds, but he lacks creativity. You need to try things. Throw Katich the ball, tell your quicks to shake the batters up a little. Just try something new.
If you want great captains, look at Fleming and Dhoni. Both great tactically, and know how to bring a match back when the chips are down.
Plus, I don't like Ponting's attitude when he is losing. On the field he looks dismal, and this kind of attiude reflects in his other players.

-Chimpdaddy-

 

[susudear]

Ponting's captaincy since Warne and McGrath retired

Ponting's record since the two great bowlers' retirement reads

Played : 17
Won : 8
Lost : 5
Drawn : 4

Out of the 8 won, 6 are at home against Sri Lanka (2), India (2), and New Zealand (2). Away wins are all against West Indies (2). All much weaker teams, except India.

Bowlers under Ricky Ponting from 1st Apr 2007

Player		Mat	Wkts	Ave	Econ	SR	5	10
B Lee		17	79	 28.53 	 3.18 	 53.80 	3	0
MG Johnson	17	74	 28.58 	 3.04 	 56.30 	2	1
SR Clark	13	43	 28.60 	 2.62 	 65.40 	1	0
SR Watson	5	12	 31.25 	 2.86 	 65.30	0	0
A Symonds	13	13	 31.38 	 2.41 	 78.00	0	0
JJ Krejza	2	13	 43.23 	 4.53 	 57.10	1	1
MJ Clarke	16	10	 55.00 	 2.87 	 114.8 	0	0
SCG MacGill	4	10	 65.10 	 3.80 	 102.6 	0	0

Batsmen under R Ponting from 1st Apr 07

Player		Mat	Runs	Ave	BF	SR	100	50
MJ Clarke	16	1372	 57.16 	2824	48.58	5	7
SM Katich	11	1021	 56.72 	2064	49.46	4	4
A Symonds	13	944	 55.52 	1406	67.14	1	8
PA Jaques	9	806	 50.37 	1509	53.41	3	5
RT Ponting	17	1329	 45.82 	2245	59.19	4	7
MEK Hussey	17	1237	 44.17 	2695	45.89	4	5
BJ Haddin	11	698	 38.77 	1352	51.62	1	1
ML Hayden	13	816	 37.09 	1327	61.49	3	2
AC Gilchrist	6	217	 31.00 	291	74.57	0	2
MG Johnson	17	375	 23.43 	679	55.22	0	1
B Lee		17	353	 17.65 	777	45.43	0	2

The old adage : Captain is as good as the team. How true!!