*Official* England in West Indies

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

Ha, thats interesting if it's true, the West Indian commentators paint a rosier picture picture when describing why he went back to Jamaica. Never the less, definitely warrents his place in the WI test side.

He's certainly played well thus far. But who knows, it could have been different if he was caught without scoring in his first innings, as he almost was. Still to convince.

 

[Beamer]

Leon Johnson is not of international standard thus far.

You can tell that after 3 ODI's against Canada and Bermuda that were not even televised? Findlay has played every match since that innings against Australia and has done diddly squat and looked amateurish as well.

Regarding Ryan Hinds as captain, that's unlikely to happen. His disciplinary record has done him no favours with Barbados and I don't see why that would change for West Indies 'A'.

Fair enough, I wasn't thinking to carefully about the captaincy tbh.

I wouldn't play Dawes and Roach in the same match. Both are raw and erratic and probably wouldn't gain much from being manhandled by Pietersen and co

I have seen both of them bowl and I believe they are the future of West Indian fast bowling. I am willing to take the risk of them being manhandled in one game as they will learn a hell of a lot from playing against England. Btw neither of them were manhandled against Sri Lanka on a painfully slow pitch in Guyana.

Of course at least 3 matches will have been played in the 4 day competition by this stage so that will answer a lot of our questions in regards to Bravo jr scoring FC centuries, Jason DAwes making his debut for Jamaica etc.

 

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

You can tell that after 3 ODI's against Canada and Bermuda that were not even televised? Findlay has played every match since that innings against Australia and has done diddly squat and looked amateurish as well.

I can tell that based on him being barely above average in one of the least competitive first-class tournaments in the world. I'm not saying he will never become international class, but it's virtually impossible to justify that he is international class based on so little. There's much more to strongly suggest that he is not.

I have seen both of them bowl and I believe they are the future of West Indian fast bowling.

The selectors agree with you, and that's helped us uncover gems like Adam Sanford while the likes of Amit Jaggernauth may never receive half the chances. There's talent in the fast bowling ranks in West Indies, but the young bowlers who actually know how to bowl tend to be spinners. Talent doesn't win you Test matches.

Basically, I don't agree with picking every talented fast bowler, because I don't believe that fast bowlers will revive West Indies cricket. Good bowlers are the key- fast or slow.

I am willing to take the risk of them being manhandled in one game as they will learn a hell of a lot from playing against England.

Getting hit about for hours by Test batsmen only really teaches one thing- "you need to bowl better". That's something they:
1. Should already know, via common sense;
2. Should learn to do in domestic cricket.

Btw neither of them were manhandled against Sri Lanka on a painfully slow pitch in Guyana.

Roach's 0-108 (27 overs) could've been worse, but it's extremely poor all the same. Dawes was better, admittedly, but did most of his bowling when the pitch had worn a bit.

I'm not opposed to one or the other playing, but both would be a bad miss for West Indies 'A' IMO. We don't want to play the tourists into form, like we did with the SL tour match you've made reference to.

 

[Beamer]

I can tell that based on him being barely above average in one of the least competitive first-class tournaments in the world. I'm not saying he will never become international class, but it's virtually impossible to justify that he is international class based on so little. There's much more to strongly suggest that he is not.

My major problem on that front is that Johnson averaged 45 in the 4 day competition last year. Findlay can't even make the Jamaican FC team, and when he has he has averaged 15 from 10 matches.

The ignoring FC performance policy only applies for some players, and yet others that perform better than them are called to account.

Basically, I don't agree with picking every talented fast bowler, because I don't believe that fast bowlers will revive West Indies cricket. Good bowlers are the key- fast or slow.

Coming from Trinidad I assure you I am appalled at the treatment of Ami Jaggernauth who I believe is far and away the best spinner we have and has proved every year. Nikita Miller is also a talented spinner, and they are both way better than Benn. Unfortunately we do not play enough FC cricket to build up the FC careers of our young fast bowlers, so we have been reduced to picking on potential (thankfully that is going to change this year with 10 FC matches).

 

[Jigga988]

He's certainly played well thus far. But who knows, it could have been different if he was caught without scoring in his first innings, as he almost was. Still to convince.

If anythingh he should have a place in the side due to the temprament he shows and his approach to batting. Unlike the likes of Dwayne Bravo and to a point Xavier Marshall he doesn't try these flamboyant strokes, just a disciplined good batsman which is what we need.

 

[Jigga988]

My major problem on that front is that Johnson averaged 45 in the 4 day competition last year. Findlay can't even make the Jamaican FC team, and when he has he has averaged 15 from 10 matches.

My problem is that the ignoring FC performance policy only applies for some players, and yet others that perform better than them are called to account.

I can't remember where i saw it, it was on some post here but basically it outlined how a West Indian batsman should be picked according to FC records. It basically said that a batsmen would need to average forty or above from FC cricket to get in to the WI side and something like averaging 60 or above in club cricket to get in to a regional side.

Only problem is if this was to be enforced then we wouldn't be able to field a full strength side.

 

[Jigga988]

Coming from Trinidad I assure you I am appalled at the treatment of Ami Jaggernauth who I believe is far and away the best spinner we have and has proved every year. Nikita Miller is also a talented spinner, and they are both way better than Benn. Unfortunately we do not play enough FC cricket to build up the FC careers of our young fast bowlers, so we have been reduced to picking on potential (thankfully that is going to change this year with 10 FC matches).

At least Miller will play the upcoming ODI's against NZ, although this is slightly strange and should really be the other way around. Miller or indeed Jaggernauth should be in the test side and i wouldn't mind seeing Benn in the ODI side.

 

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

My major problem on that front is that Johnson averaged 45 in the 4 day competition last year. Findlay can't even make the Jamaican FC team, and when he has he has averaged 15 from 10 matches.

3 fifties in 10 innings. Yes, he had a decent season, but still nothing to prove that he's international standard. As for Johnson v Findlay, that's nothing to do with FC cricket.

The ignoring FC performance policy only applies for some players, and yet others that perform better than them are called to account

The important thing is to consider FC performances for Test cricket and OD performances for ODI cricket.

 

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

If anythingh he should have a place in the side due to the temprament he shows and his approach to batting. Unlike the likes of Dwayne Bravo and to a point Xavier Marshall he doesn't try these flamboyant strokes, just a disciplined good batsman which is what we need.

Yes, we need players up for the hard graft, but Nash still has to prove that he can (like Chanderpaul) consistently score runs doing so and isn't just another Ganga. As for good disciplined batsman, he's disciplined, yes. We'll wait to see whether he truly is good.

At least Miller will play the upcoming ODI's against NZ, although this is slightly strange and should really be the other way around. Miller or indeed Jaggernauth should be in the test side and i wouldn't mind seeing Benn in the ODI side.

I'm not convinced by Benn in ODI cricket either. I'd always pick Miller ahead of him in that form. Benn is clearly better at OD than at FC, but that doesn't mean he's good enough at either.

 

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

FC performance-based XI

...would look something like this...

CH Gayle
DS Smith/DM Richards
RR Sarwan
S Chanderpaul
RS Morton
DJ Bravo/RO Hinds/BP Nash
D Ramdin +
JE Taylor
NO Miller
JP Bennett
A Jaggernauth

ITSTL.

 

[Beamer]

IMHO Johnson over Findlay anytime, it's not even close. So Findlay averaged 50 from 5 List A matches with 2 fifties before he was called up. That is a joke, and there is no way that would have happened to anyone not from Jamaica under the current regime.

It's ludicrous.

That is my main beef with the current ODI squad. Otherwise they are not doing too badly and deserve to be there.

Your XI is pretty much right as far as FC performance goes, but we both know that the dunderheads would never play 2 spinners in the same team as they believe Chris Gayle is the best spinner in the West Indies.

 

[Jigga988]

...would look something like this...

CH Gayle
DS Smith/DM Richards
RR Sarwan
S Chanderpaul
RS Morton
DJ Bravo/RO Hinds/BP Nash
D Ramdin +
JE Taylor
NO Miller
JP Bennett
A Jaggernauth

ITSTL.

Like i said earlier, he always makes the runs in FC cricket and warm up games but never produces in test cricket, TBH he looks like a fish out of water in test cricket.

Interested to see who has the better FC record out of the 2 spinners, personally, i prefer Jaggernauth because he has the potential to get good batsmen out, not just West Indian batsman who are clueless against spin. Not surprised to see 2 spinners there.

Like i said earlier i dont think Devon Smith is that far away from the Windies side, he looked to be in some decent form against Sri Lanka. Its interesting to see how this side would differ with a side that was based on raw talent, i.e. the bravo brothers Edwards Marshall etc.

 

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

IMHO Johnson over Findlay anytime, it's not even close.

On what evidence? Findlay being poor is not evidence to call Johnson better.

 

[Beamer]

Great idea that.....Raw talent Windies XI:

Gayle
Barath (though he does average 44 in FC cricket)
Sarwan
Marshall
Chanderpaul
Bravo
Fletcher (wk)
Taylor
Mohammed (difficult choice though)
Edwards
Roach

Interesting that it is basically the core of our side anyway, which proves that we have no depth in our cricket.

 

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

Like i said earlier i dont think Devon Smith is that far away from the Windies side, he looked to be in some decent form against Sri Lanka. Its interesting to see how this side would differ with a side that was based on raw talent, i.e. the bravo brothers Edwards Marshall etc.

Smith's future in the team looks to be down the order, because he's always likely to play a daft shot against the less forgiving new ball.

 

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

Great idea that.....Raw talent Windies XI:

Gayle
Barath (though he does average 44 in FC cricket)
Sarwan
Marshall
Chanderpaul
Bravo
Fletcher (wk)
Taylor
Mohammed (difficult choice though)
Edwards
Roach

Interesting that it is basically the core of our side anyway, which proves that we have no depth in our cricket.

Gayle, Chanders, Sarwan and Bravo are a bit more than raw talent though. All are rather refined. And Bennett probably should be there before Roach too.

 

[Beamer]

On what evidence? Findlay being poor is not evidence to call Johnson better.

How about their under 19 and FC records? Ok, there is no proof that Johnson is better at OD cricket, but 5 matches is not enough to say that Findlay is better either, and so once they were selected it is crazy to persist with one and send the other home even though their performances in their first 3 ODI's were very similar.

So why is Findlay being persisted with even though he has looked out of his depth in the last 3 matches while the other has been sent home without a match? You guessed it, it is because one is from Jamaica.

 

[Beamer]

Gayle, Chanders, Sarwan and Bravo are a bit more than raw talent though. All are rather refined. And Bennett probably should be there before Roach too.

Bennett is not hugely talented he just bowls the ball straight at around 85mph. Roach can swing the ball both ways at around 85 - 92mph which requires a lot more talent.

Bennet deserves a chance IMHO, but he is nowhere near as talented as Roach.

 

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

How about their under 19 and FC records? Ok, there is no proof that Johnson is better at OD cricket, but 5 matches is not enough to say that Findlay is better either, and so once they were selected it is crazy to persist with one and send the other home even though their performances in their first 3 ODI's were very similar.

Findlay's only played 3 more innings than Johnson, but he's scored much quicker and has played against better opposition. If he is to be dropped, there's no sense in doing so for Johnson.

And if Under-19 cricket was an indication of senior international quality, Denesh Ramdin would be the best in the world.

So why is Findlay being persisted with even though he has looked out of his depth in the last 3 matches while the other has been sent home without a match? You guessed it, it is because one is from Jamaica.

This is starting to sound distinctly anti-Jamaican.

Findlay is being persisted with because the way a player looks has not often hindered WI selectors thought process. If players perform, they'll be picked. And as far as WIndies cricket is concerned right now, an average of 27 is performing, especially given (I'll say it again) an unbeaten 50 against Australia. That's the way the selectors work. It's not about nationality here.

They were never going to pick both of them in the squad, and Findlay is the incumbent.

 

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

Bennett is not hugely talented he just bowls the ball straight at around 85mph. Roach can swing the ball both ways at around 85 - 92mph which requires a lot more talent.

Steups. Some awful bowlers have been able to swing the ball at pace. Bennett is the one who has proven that he can take wickets cheap and often. That's what you pick Test bowlers on. Not on their natural talent.

I'd say Dwayne Smith is more naturally talented than Paul Collingwood. Guess which one is the deserved international...