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***Official England in India***

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
Possibly, but I think Gautam has a lot upside yet. Will be interesting to see in a few years time what they've done.
Might well do, though so I hope will Strauss. Obviously Gambhir's likely to have more years ahead of him as of 2009, but both of them can have some good years ahead of them as of now.

But nonetheless, right now Strauss is far, far more proven and if I had a Test against Allan Donald and Shaun Pollock of 1998 transplanted forward a decade starting tomorrow, I'd have Strauss without a backward thought.
 

krkode

State Captain
When it cames down to it, India despite not playing there best cricket for the first few days, hung in the game, battled to not allow England to put the game out of their reach. When offered a glimmer of hope to win the Test, it is clear they took it decisively with both hands. England are lacking the belief to win a Test from the position India were in, and also the skill to acknowledge big stages in a Test match when it is crucial they impose themsleves on the opposition and grasp the opportunity.
Yeah, I wasn't watching the game but from what I read, they played incredibly slow in the post-lunch session of Day 4. Especially for a team that was in such a situation as they were in and trying to set a target.

Granted, the England lineup seems to lack the kind of batsmen needed to really accelerate the scoring - the likes of Sehwag, Dhoni, etc. Guys who can just go, "it's time to go" and really kick into gear.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
Disagree with that. It is even more important to have variety on pitches that are not offering as much spin. To use Vettori as an example once more, his deception in flight is vital when he is not the biggest turner of the ball, and the ability to bowl a ball 10kph quicker without any discernible change in action is a skill that would benefit MSP on any track.
But still, Vettori on non-turning pitches isn't that good a bowler. If he couldn't bat, there's no way NZ would be best utilised picking him for every game.

I'd say it's important not to play, as a fingerspinner, on non-responsive pitches.
 

Precambrian

Banned
Dreadful as Pietersen was in this current game, I don't think he's done enough of late to fall below Gambhir, who has still only established himself as a Test player very recently.
However Pietersen has NEVER looked anywhere near consistent in the subcontinent, and that team is purely on current form.
 

sirdj

State Vice-Captain
Good show by India. I think England lost this game yesterday when they batted so slowly. Had India been chasing about 430odd things might have been a little different.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
However Pietersen has NEVER looked anywhere near consistent in the subcontinent, and that team is purely on current form.
If I could feel confident that this was due to being the subcontinent, then I'd leave Pietersen out. But as I said in the relevant thread, I think it's more coincidence than any specific weakness.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
Good show by India. I think England lost this game yesterday when they batted so slowly. Had India been chasing about 430odd things might have been a little different.
I'm actually not convinced they would've been actually, but England's poor batting yesterday after Strauss was out didn't help matters at all.
 

Woodster

International Captain
But still, Vettori on non-turning pitches isn't that good a bowler. If he couldn't bat, there's no way NZ would be best utilised picking him for every game.

I'd say it's important not to play, as a fingerspinner, on non-responsive pitches.
You don't gain the respect of Australia without having something about you, and they don't always compete against each other on big spinners. Anyway, that is clearly an individual opinion.

If the fingerspinner is not of the required standard, I fully agree. No point picking a spinner only for him to be ineffective and go round the park, especially against nations so adept at playing slow bowling.
 

sirdj

State Vice-Captain
Read somewhere that Flintoff sledged Tendulkar somewhere in the beginning of his innings. Is that true?? Wrong guy to sledge......what was Freddy thinking ??
 

Woodster

International Captain
Read somewhere that Flintoff sledged Tendulkar somewhere in the beginning of his innings. Is that true?? Wrong guy to sledge......what was Freddy thinking ??
Didn't see it myself, however, I can't imagine he would go at Sachin like he did Yuvraj in the first innings. Nothing wrong with a few words here and there to anyone. It's one thing sledging yet another just having a bit of banter.
 

Precambrian

Banned
If I could feel confident that this was due to being the subcontinent, then I'd leave Pietersen out. But as I said in the relevant thread, I think it's more coincidence than any specific weakness.
Sorry. DWTA. Kevin is becoming a Ponting, except that he's poor throughout the subcontinent. There may be arguments about how he's ben successful against Warne and Murali, but those were in Australia and England. Am not a technical expert, but I think it's more to do with traditional back and across approach.

It suggests more than coincidence when he averages just 28 against career avg of 49, in the subcontinent.

Code:
Grouping	Span		Mat	Inns	NO	Runs	HS	Ave	SR	100	50	
v India		2006-2008	4	8	0	221	87	27.62	58.15	0	2
v Pakistan	2005-2005	3	6	0	201	100	33.50	66.11	1	0
v Sri Lanka	2007-2007	3	6	1	126	45*	25.20	50.40	0	0
 

dontcloseyoureyes

BARNES OUT
For a whole 1 Test?
As large a sample size as Burgey has based his opinion on him during this tour.

One average test and one sensational test in India, and now he's shocking in India? Great call. Lee had a whole series and played like ****ing **** the whole time, I don't care about his personal or physical troubles, he was obviously well enough to play and he was ****.

Let's see Jimmy have a series before comparing him to a worse Lee in India, eh?
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
Read somewhere that Flintoff sledged Tendulkar somewhere in the beginning of his innings. Is that true?? Wrong guy to sledge......what was Freddy thinking ??
Didn't see it myself, however, I can't imagine he would go at Sachin like he did Yuvraj in the first innings. Nothing wrong with a few words here and there to anyone. It's one thing sledging yet another just having a bit of banter.
The idea of having words is to try and make a batsman play worse. We've seen plenty of evidence down the years that to say stuff to Tendulkar is only likely to make him play better.

I doubt Flintoff said anything, as he (like Warne, like most people) knows who to say stuff to and who not to. If he, or anyone, did, it was unwise.
 

zaremba

Cricketer Of The Year
Hats off to India on a fantastic win. I was pleased to see England so competitive for the first 3 innings. I have no complaints about the scoring rate by England's batsmen: this is Test cricket and there was plenty of time to enforce the win (or loss!) and all that mattered was getting the runs on the board. This they did. And as I say many congratulations to India for chasing a big target down so magnificently on a final day pitch.
 

Precambrian

Banned
Read somewhere that Flintoff sledged Tendulkar somewhere in the beginning of his innings. Is that true?? Wrong guy to sledge......what was Freddy thinking ??
Didn't see it myself, however, I can't imagine he would go at Sachin like he did Yuvraj in the first innings. Nothing wrong with a few words here and there to anyone. It's one thing sledging yet another just having a bit of banter.
Flintoff was a rookie when he had a go at Tendulkar. Nothing wrong in giving the batsman a word, and Tendulkar is no exception. But it is completely useless. I think it was Steve Waugh who said sledging Tendulkar made him all the more determined and fired up.

Now what will the bowler sledge at Tendulkar? Other than personal insults, which is completely gross, they literally don't have anything to sledge as regards to his play or skills.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
Sorry. DWTA. Kevin is becoming a Ponting, except that he's poor throughout the subcontinent. There may be arguments about how he's ben successful against Warne and Murali, but those were in Australia and England. Am not a technical expert, but I think it's more to do with traditional back and across approach.

It suggests more than coincidence when he averages just 28 against career avg of 49, in the subcontinent.

Code:
Grouping	Span		Mat	Inns	NO	Runs	HS	Ave	SR	100	50	
v India		2006-2008	4	8	0	221	87	27.62	58.15	0	2
v Pakistan	2005-2005	3	6	0	201	100	33.50	66.11	1	0
v Sri Lanka	2007-2007	3	6	1	126	45*	25.20	50.40	0	0
As I say, however big the average difference, unless you can actually pinpoint a reason then it has to be nothing more than coincidence.

I'm sure I could find plenty of other patterns of failure somewhere in Pietersen's career. Or anyone else's. Unless there's an obvious reason for them, they're meaingless - ie, they're pure coincidence.
 

sirdj

State Vice-Captain
Didn't see it myself, however, I can't imagine he would go at Sachin like he did Yuvraj in the first innings. Nothing wrong with a few words here and there to anyone. It's one thing sledging yet another just having a bit of banter.
Your best bet to get Tendulkar out is to be really nice to him and get him to make a mistake off Panesar or the other kid Swann. But if you sledge him then it really gets his concentration going and once he has his shell up its nearly impossible to get him out cheaply.
 

Woodster

International Captain
The idea of having words is to try and make a batsman play worse. We've seen plenty of evidence down the years that to say stuff to Tendulkar is only likely to make him play better.

I doubt Flintoff said anything, as he (like Warne, like most people) knows who to say stuff to and who not to. If he, or anyone, did, it was unwise.
It is impossible to make a judgement on anything that occurred without knowing what was said!! I don't believe if words were said by Freddie, it would have been of a nature to disrupt Temdulkar, like you say, his concentration and determination is then intensified. I see nothing wrong with a few words, and I don't believe a brief exchange would then spur a player on to such great lengths. There is a world of difference between a funny quip or similar and really going at a player questioning his technique and all sorts.
 

Woodster

International Captain
Your best bet to get Tendulkar out is to be really nice to him and get him to make a mistake off Panesar or the other kid Swann. But if you sledge him then it really gets his concentration going and once he has his shell up its nearly impossible to get him out cheaply.
In the mood he was in today, it wouldn't have made a jot of difference if England had not spoken to him all day. He was different class, simple as that.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
It is impossible to make a judgement on anything that occurred without knowing what was said!! I don't believe if words were said by Freddie, it would have been of a nature to disrupt Temdulkar, like you say, his concentration and determination is then intensified. I see nothing wrong with a few words, and I don't believe a brief exchange would then spur a player on to such great lengths. There is a world of difference between a funny quip or similar and really going at a player questioning his technique and all sorts.
Oh, for sure. However, I don't think there's that much likelihood of anything, funny quip or questioning of technique, having any useful effect for the fielding side.

I'm not suggesting there's anything wrong with either, the way I do think there's something wrong with "you ****ing ****" or similar. Simply that if the idea is to improve your chances of getting the batsman out, and in the cases of some batsmen, saying nothing whatsoever is your best chance of doing that.
 

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