You know what really grinds my sporting gears?

[BoyBrumby]

I'd love to know the "top 2" of the EPL over the last decade, and how many teams have made it in that period.

I can tell you now: three. Liverpool haven't actually finished top 2 in the EPL yet.

 

[Jono]

That's pretty horrible. People should see this not as a criticism of the sport of soccer, but the leagues that are set up.

I always use the AFL as an example as a great equalising league, but the NBA and NFL (as shown above) are far more variable with the amount of teams that are successful than the EPL. Its a serious issue that almost all EPL soccer fans seems to be willing to just ignore. Its like they're in denial.

I'm a Richmond supporter in the AFL and have seen my team make the last 4 in the AFL twice in my lifetime. One of the worst performing teams over the last decade. Yet I still know there is always hope of my team actually winning a premiership simply because I've seen so many teams go from **** to awesome, due to the equalising nature of our league. Take Hawthorn the recent champions. Were near the bottom of the barrel 4-5 years ago, and are now premiers!

If I was born in the UK as a Portsmouth supporter, I'd actually seriously think I'll never see my team make the top 4 unless some random rich guy buys my club or something.

 

[Magrat Garlick]

I can tell you now: three. Liverpool haven't actually finished top 2 in the EPL yet.

2002 disagrees.

 

[BoyBrumby]

That's pretty horrible. People should see this not as a criticism of the sport of soccer, but the leagues that are set up.

I always use the AFL as an example as a great equalising league, but the NBA and NFL (as shown above) are far more variable with the amount of teams that are successful than the EPL. Its a serious issue that almost all EPL soccer fans seems to be willing to just ignore. Its like they're in denial.

I'm a Richmond supporter in the AFL and have seen my team make the last 4 in the AFL twice in my lifetime. One of the worst performing teams over the last decade. Yet I still know there is always hope of my team actually winning a premiership simply because I've seen so many teams go from **** to awesome, due to the equalising nature of our league. Take Hawthorn the recent champions. Were near the bottom of the barrel 4-5 years ago, and are now premiers!

If I was born in the UK as a Portsmouth supporter, I'd actually seriously think I'll never see my team make the top 4 unless some random rich guy buys my club or something.

No, I agree with you. It's not ideal & I speak as a supporter of one of the "big 4".

You pre-empt the obvious counter argument, which is that if a cap was introduced all the players would bugger off to Spain or Italy where there isn't one and the EPL would lose its pre-eminence.

The argument is quality or equality, basically.

 

[BoyBrumby]

2002 disagrees.

****. Quite right.

ManUre were in title race longer tho.

 

[Jono]

No, I agree with you. It's not ideal & I speak as a supporter of one of the "big 4".

You pre-empt the obvious counter argument, which is that if a cap was introduced all the players would bugger off to Spain or Italy where there isn't one and the EPL would lose its pre-eminence.

The argument is quality or equality, basically.

I sympathise for the argument, but then wonder wtf is the point of being a supporter that isn't one of the top 4?

Be a Sunderland supporter to win Div 1, and then step into the EPL and get your ass handed to you, or at best end up mid-table?

That's why the marketing of the EPL overseas is based around the big 4, as seen in the Indian ad I posted above. Highly unlikely that the other clubs will receive much revenue through an international fan base, which removes any chance of them ever having the money to compete with the big 4. Its like a never-ending circle. Crap team because of no money, hence no exposure to international fans, hence no huge income, hence crap team.

 

[Magrat Garlick]

That's pretty horrible. People should see this not as a criticism of the sport of soccer, but the leagues that are set up.

I always use the AFL as an example as a great equalising league, but the NBA and NFL (as shown above) are far more variable with the amount of teams that are successful than the EPL. Its a serious issue that almost all EPL soccer fans seems to be willing to just ignore. Its like they're in denial.

I'm a Richmond supporter in the AFL and have seen my team make the last 4 in the AFL twice in my lifetime. One of the worst performing teams over the last decade. Yet I still know there is always hope of my team actually winning a premiership simply because I've seen so many teams go from **** to awesome, due to the equalising nature of our league. Take Hawthorn the recent champions. Were near the bottom of the barrel 4-5 years ago, and are now premiers!

If I was born in the UK as a Portsmouth supporter, I'd actually seriously think I'll never see my team make the top 4 unless some random rich guy buys my club or something.

Here's a secret: the teams on top actually get considerably more amounts of money from the leagues in TV deals and suchlike. Even taking out the merchandising deals in Asia, which is the prime source of money, the big 4 take out about 45-50 % of the pot handed out by European and English federations due to media deals.

Start with fixing that before thinking about salary caps, imo.

 

[pasag]

Yet I still know there is always hope of my team actually winning a premiership...

 

[Jono]

Interest. Tbf, I never used the term salary cap in any of my above posts. Anything that made the league more interesting in terms of overall results would be great. Salary cap just works for the AFL as there's no intl competition, and the money is still more attractive than cricket.

Is the issue even ever brought up in the media in England? Do the papers ever say "hang on, why the **** are we accepting the same 4 teams winning all the time?"

 

[Jono]

Knew you'd poke your face in here with a post like this. Bitch

 

[BoyBrumby]

I sympathise for the argument, but then wonder wtf is the point of being a supporter that isn't one of the top 4?

Be a Sunderland supporter to win Div 1, and then step into the EPL and get your ass handed to you, or at best end up mid-table?

That's why the marketing of the EPL overseas is based around the big 4, as seen in the Indian ad I posted above. Highly unlikely that the other clubs will receive much revenue through an international fan base, which removes any chance of them ever having the money to compete with the big 4. Its like a never-ending circle. Crap team because of no money, hence no exposure to international fans, hence no huge income, hence crap team.

I think most fans pledge their troth to a team for whatever reason & set their sights accordingly. To take Exeter as the example, as Neil & grecian follow them, both were doubtless made up for them to re-enter the football league last season. That is to say become one of the best 92 teams in England (& Wales). Not any great shakes in the grand scheme of things, but a huge affort for Exeter.

I guess it's the same for the Socceroos. No-one seriously expected them to win the world cup, so to qualify from their group (ahead of Croatia to boot) was a tremendous effort.

 

[grecian]

Indeed, it's not ideal, but you just have to realise the top 4 are exceedingly well run clubs. Well three are, and one have a multi-billionaire owner. Nothing much can be done about it, and any restrictions, just means that the other European leagues will outstrip our competition.

Really pointless comparing it to AFL or any of the American sports as they're the only gig in town really.

Exeter haven't been in the two top leagues of the divisions for our 100 plus years in pro-football, so not much has changed really. I'm not really stressing about the dominance of the top-four, it has to be said

Hull, Wigan and Stoke does show that it's possible for a smaller club to get in the top division, mind.

Much prefer football nowadays, to days of yore. Players were always ***** when I met them, now we just read more about it in the tabs. The culture is twenty times more civilised, and personally I'm pleased that skill is not hoofed off the pitch any more. (well mostly, Torquay and Stoke excluded, obviously).

 

[Johnners]

Really? I'm not even an NBA fan, but check out the last 10 NBA championship finals:

2007-08 Boston Celtics def Los Angeles Lakers
2006-07 San Antonio Spurs def Cleveland Cavaliers
2005-06 Miami Heat def Dallas Mavericks
2004-05 San Antonio Spurs def Detroit Pistons
2003-04 Detroit Pistons def Los Angeles Lakers
2002-03 San Antonio Spurs def New Jersey Nets
2001-02 Los Angeles Lakers def New Jersey Nets
2000-01 Los Angeles Lakers def Philadelphia 76ers
1999-00 Los Angeles Lakers def Indiana Pacers
1998-99 San Antonio Spurs def New York Knicks

I count 11 different teams making the Championship finals over the last decade.

Let's try NFL now.

January 31, 1999 Denver Broncos (2) 34–19 Atlanta Falcons
January 30, 2000 St. Louis Rams 23–16 Tennessee Titansc[
January 28, 2001 Baltimore Ravensc[›] 34–7 New York Giants
February 3, 2002 New England Patriots 20–17 St. Louis Rams
January 26, 2003 Tampa Bay Buccaneers 48–21 Oakland Raiders
February 1, 2004 New England Patriots (2) 32–29 Carolina Panthers
February 6, 2005 New England Patriots (3) 24–21 Philadelphia Eagles
February 5, 2006 Pittsburgh Steelers (5)c[›] 21–10 Seattle Seahawks
February 4, 2007 Indianapolis Colts (2) 29–17 Chicago Bears
February 3, 2008 New York Giants (3)c[›] 17–14 New England Patriots

I count 15 different teams there!

I'd love to know the "top 2" of the EPL over the last decade, and how many teams have made it in that period.

Which is why I said just about

I'm not saying the EPL, or indeed any of the football leagues across Europe are perfect, but they're hardly a shambles afaic.

 

[GIMH]

Jono, I find your arguments compelling, but I do disagree. It's all well and good saying you know that your team has a chance of winning the AFL title next year, but the fact is that that possibility will always be restricted to the same 16 teams.

I'd disagree hugely with Brumby's assessment that the big 4 started in 97-98; for me it was more like 2005. Both Liverpool and Chelsea had huge spells outside the top 4 prior to then, and Newcastle, Leeds & Everton have all breached the top 4 in recent memory, Tottenham came withina dodgy lasgane (copyright Brumby) of doing so and Aston Villa are level on points with United in third.

Chelsea weren't even a massive club before Abramovich, they'd won one title. Everton and Aston Villa have won heaps more titles than Chelsea, I don't think the worrying fact is that Liverpool/Arsenal/United are always up there, but that a place at the top can be bought so easily; Smitteh might well be happy in the coming years as unlikely as it seems, as Citeh have become hugely rich.

I agree that money playing such a huge part is wrong but the whole "big four" thing is a little overplayed. In the late 80s people used to go on about the "big six" - Liverpool, Everton, Man United, Man Citeh, Arsenal & Tottenham (I think they were the six, Brumby to confirm), but basically in the 80s the title was shared by Liverpool & Everton until the Arse came along with their amazing triumph in 89.

Back to my original point, I would be more concerned about an actual closed shop than a theoretical one. The top four will not stay that way forever, as I said Aston Villa may well breach it this season (Brumby & sledger hoping not itbt) and additionally, in spite of the whole "big four" thing, the Premiership title races have been much more interesting this decade than last, where United won all but two Premierships (and came second in the last old style Football League). And the fact is that only Chelsea have truly manufactured their way into this big four, Liverpool were way out of it as they didn't have a decent manager for ten years, and prior to Wenger, Arsenal were in theory no bigger a club than their good friends Tottenham.

The gap is harder to breach than it was, but as I say it won't stay like that forever, and at least new teams get the chance to join the league each year.

I sympathise for the argument, but then wonder wtf is the point of being a supporter that isn't one of the top 4?
.

See I think this is where cultural differences play a huge part. I have a cousin who has lived most of his life in America, when he came over to visit (quite a long time ago now, as it was) he asked me, "do you support Liverpool then?" and I was like, "um, no, Tranmere," and he genuinely couldn't see what the point was supporting a small club.

It's not all about winning the major titles - sure they are the dream, I still believe there will be a day where Ian Goodison lifts the Champions League for the whites . But the reailty is that we just enjoy watching our teams play, you take the rough with the smooth. There is a life beyond the Premiership and it's one us lower league fans absolutely love, as much as moan about it.

 

[Jono]

What do you disagree with though GIMH? That there is a dominance of 4 teams in the EPL? Because that's undeniable.

I understand that there are obviously other reasons for supporting your club than wanting them to win the EPL. But I can't help but feel you're a great example of just accepting the status quo, and denying that a problem exists. Did you watch that ESPN-Star ad I linked to earlier? It flagrantly put the 4 team's logos on the screen, and that's it! I know you'll say its an Indian EPL ad, but considering how much revenue is avialable internationally, and how much reliance the big 4 has on its international fan base, its extremely relevant.

I just can't understand how you can find this acceptable:




The EPL chief executive's comment that I grabbed from Wiki:

"There are a lot of different tussles that go on in the Premier League depending on whether you're at the top, in the middle or at the bottom that make it interesting."

That personifies the problem IMO. Acceptance of the gulf.

 

[Jono]

Which is why I said just about

I'm not saying the EPL, or indeed any of the football leagues across Europe are perfect, but they're hardly a shambles afaic.

Its obviously not a shambles in terms of finance and popularity obviously. Everybody loves a good Liverpool vs. Man U game or whatever, and that'll have huge ratings all over the world. And of course Wigan fans will flock to see their club. I was referring to it being actually fair and unpredictable come the end of the season.

Really pointless comparing it to AFL or any of the American sports as they're the only gig in town really.

That's true. Doesn't change the fact that they're all better leagues/competitions comes finals time (well the EPL only crowns the champion as to whoever is on top of the table, but you get my point).

Its obviously an issue premiership football around the world has to tackle (no pun intended). Its also obvious that it'll never be fixed as well, when criticisms are retorted with comments like I quoted from the EPL Chief Executive above

Anyway I'll leave it here, but its an issue I believe strongly in. I just think that it could be such an awesome competition (given the passion the fans have for their clubs) but is not even close to as interesting as it could be.

 

[BoyBrumby]

I'd disagree hugely with Brumby's assessment that the big 4 started in 97-98; for me it was more like 2005. Both Liverpool and Chelsea had huge spells outside the top 4 prior to then, and Newcastle, Leeds & Everton have all breached the top 4 in recent memory, Tottenham came withina dodgy lasgane (copyright Brumby) of doing so and Aston Villa are level on points with United in third.

Well other teams have breached it since 98, yes, but I'd guess of the 44 top 4 spots since then the big four have occupied about 38 or 39.

I agree that money playing such a huge part is wrong but the whole "big four" thing is a little overplayed. In the late 80s people used to go on about the "big six" - Liverpool, Everton, Man United, Man Citeh, Arsenal & Tottenham (I think they were the six, Brumby to confirm), but basically in the 80s the title was shared by Liverpool & Everton until the Arse came along with their amazing triumph in 89.

Big five from memory; Citeh weren't included &, again IIRC, weren't a fixture in the top flight back then either.

 

[Neil Pickup]

Don't actually care about the big four. Premiership football is for the most part utterly soulless and best off enjoyed far removed with an eye on taking the piss out of the one-eyed, no-brained glory support on days like two weeks ago, when Chelsea fell to Burnley in the League Cup...

I know that the passion and excitement I felt during the playoff run-in - I mean, I'm still feeling the hairs on my neck stand up as I write about it now - was a hundred times more than a make-believe Man Utd fan will ever take from whatever number league title it is. That's football: club and community. Not just winning.

 

[GIMH]

What do you disagree with though GIMH? That there is a dominance of 4 teams in the EPL? Because that's undeniable.

Oh no, I'd never deny that, though as I said it is likely IMO the teams that dominate will change periodically.

I understand that there are obviously other reasons for supporting your club than wanting them to win the EPL. But I can't help but feel you're a great example of just accepting the status quo, and denying that a problem exists. Did you watch that ESPN-Star ad I linked to earlier? It flagrantly put the 4 team's logos on the screen, and that's it! I know you'll say its an Indian EPL ad, but considering how much revenue is avialable internationally, and how much reliance the big 4 has on its international fan base, its extremely relevant.

It's not so much as accepting the status quo but not really thinking that much of it. Football has always had times where teams have dominated, the below looks worse than its simply because United were so, so good in the 90s. Same for Liverpool 70s/80s; great sporting teams don't just win one championship, they dominate. See the Aussies in cricket for the last 15 years.

I haven't been able to watch the vid because I'm in work, but yeah that is regrettable. I guess my main point is that it's not all about being at the top, and fans from overseas are more likely to support a successful side. I don't believe that the Premiership would have been successful as it has without having a few sides that were constantly massive, because that's what makes players want to come here, and it's what makes youngsters want to play football. They dream of running out at Old Trafford, Anfield, Emirates, Stamford, not necessarily for those teams but against them - would there be the same attraction if all the sides were equal? Similarly as a lower league fan, when we get an FA Cup tie against one of those huge sides, it is mega, aside from Liverpool (because of the proximity) I wouldn't get that buzz if drawn against the others if all Prem sides were equal.

(not sure if that even makes sense tbh)

I just can't understand how you can find this acceptable:




The EPL chief executive's comment that I grabbed from Wiki:

"There are a lot of different tussles that go on in the Premier League depending on whether you're at the top, in the middle or at the bottom that make it interesting."

That personifies the problem IMO. Acceptance of the gulf.

Finally, I don't think that artificially addressing a gulf fits with what football is all about, draft systems like in the States, for example, would be a joke. Wouldn't be opposed to a salary cap, though, we have one in the lower leagues in fact.

I don't know how much more equal it would make things though - part of the problem is that because of ads like the one you posted, overseas players want to mainly play for those four sides. In fact, I don't know why I never mentioned that before - I guess the overseas element is a big factor, and your initial Wigan point is a good one - the average talented African player might not even have heard of Wigan or FUlham, so they want to play for Chelsea or Liverpool. And that's where all the talent flocks, and the rest get stuck with the John McBrides (no offence to him of course).

 

[Shaggy Alfresco]

The big four is in my opinion a problem, but that problem pales in comparison to the gulf between the Prem and Championship. Let's stop the Premiership from becoming a virtual closed shop with 10-15 permanent clubs and 5 or so ping ponging ones, then we can talk about the big four being a problem.