Gough slams England's selection favouritism

[aussie]

They're not nobodies, they're some of the few good OD bowlers in the English game. Broad may be the top wicket-taker since the 2007/08 season, but that flatters him - immensely. Only in the summer of 2008 did he actually bowl even particularly well.

And instead of backing Broad to build on his recent ODI performances you say his record "Flatters" him. Christ..

 

[Richard]

I don't back players to do stuff unless there's pretty strong evidence to suggest they can. I do, however, tell things as I see them, and the fact is Broad's figures from 2007/08 onwards flatter him. He hasn't bowled as well as they suggest. And I don't see any point sugar-coating matters and trying to pretend someone's done better than they have.

 

[GIMH]

Broad bowled bloody brilliantly in ODIs in the summer Richard, I don't think his figures flattered him at all. Looked a different bowler to the one we saw in the Tests.

 

[BoyBrumby]

Broad bowled bloody brilliantly in ODIs in the summer Richard, I don't think his figures flattered him at all. Looked a different bowler to the one we saw in the Tests.

Interestingly (or perhaps not) Broad had exactly the same economy rate as Dicko's beloved Killeen in List As in 2008 (3.93), but took his wickets at over 10 runs less per scalp.

 

[Rant0r]

Not really. There's a hell of a lot of talk about this nonsense of "your best Test players should be your best OD players", which simply ignores reality. England have picked lots of OD specialists, nonetheless - the trouble is they've picked the wrong ones. The fact that they think Tim Bresnan and Paul Grayson can be ODI-standard players doesn't change the fact that Usman Afzaal and Dimitri Mascarenhas could be if given the chance. Darren Maddy, meanwhile, was never picked as a ODI specialist at all, his brief foray was into both forms at the same time.

Stephen Waugh was a wholly average OD player even if he did play in 4 WCs, Dean Jones hardly ever scored many runs outside dead Tests, I could go on. All the players I named were good or excellent at one form and either not particularly good or utterly useless at the other.

So? Tests are Tests, ODIs are ODIs. A player's ODI calibre is absolutely nothing to do with his Test calibre.

England play far less domestic OD cricket now than they did for the previous 30 years. It hasn't changed a thing.

You can't turn good First-Class players into good one-day players. They need to learn the skills early in their career - before they become professionals. If they don't do it then, they almost certainly never will.

i never said the best test players should be in the one day team, most players with good first class grounding succeed (within reason), like most of australias players, 15 years ago australias best one day batsmen included geoff marsh and david boon, who wouldn't get a game now, and 30 was a decent average in this form, 70 was an outstanding strike rate, and 200 was the benchmark score. and i don't think anyone would regard steve waugh as an average one day player.

what i'm really trying to do is to dig into england's constant failure in this format despite being experienced at domestic level, and i think too much domestic one dayers is it. 20/20 may well have the same effect. and using australia as an example,and you could throw their one day team into whites and it would work, and vice versa, ignoring the most recent results.

keeping it simple perhaps, 5 batsman, an allrounder, keeper, spinner, 3 fast bowlers... and i still don't know why prior is opening, gilchrist was a one off

 

[Richard]

Broad bowled bloody brilliantly in ODIs in the summer Richard, I don't think his figures flattered him at all. Looked a different bowler to the one we saw in the Tests.

Indeed he bowled pretty well (not brilliantly), but he was flattered in the extreme by his figures in 2007/08 and in the Second ODI of the India series.

 

[Richard]

Interestingly (or perhaps not) Broad had exactly the same economy rate as Dicko's beloved Killeen in List As in 2008 (3.93), but took his wickets at over 10 runs less per scalp.

Wow, a whole 1 season.

 

[Richard]

i never said the best test players should be in the one day team, most players with good first class grounding succeed (within reason), like most of australias players, 15 years ago australias best one day batsmen included geoff marsh and david boon, who wouldn't get a game now, and 30 was a decent average in this form, 70 was an outstanding strike rate, and 200 was the benchmark score. and i don't think anyone would regard steve waugh as an average one day player.

Stephen Waugh wasn't that good a one-day player, simple as. 30 was never that good an average, was merely passable.

And it's not true at all that most players with good First-Class grounding succeed at OD cricket at all, they need the skills, and those skills need to be developed at an early age.

what i'm really trying to do is to dig into england's constant failure in this format despite being experienced at domestic level, and i think too much domestic one dayers is it. 20/20 may well have the same effect. and using australia as an example,and you could throw their one day team into whites and it would work, and vice versa, ignoring the most recent results.

As I say, England picking domestic failures is the problem. There is far less domestic one-day cricket now than there was 5 years ago and more as I've already said. But overkill of domestic one-day cricket won't turn good OD players into bad ones. The problem is that there just haven't been enough good OD players in recent times, and quite a few of the few good ones there have been have been ignored in favour of very poor ones.

keeping it simple perhaps, 5 batsman, an allrounder, keeper, spinner, 3 fast bowlers... and i still don't know why prior is opening, gilchrist was a one off

You want five bowlers and six batsmen, including your wicketkeeper, no need to overcomplicate matters. Some of those bowlers should obviously be able to bat, ideally three at least. If those five bowlers are seamers or three seamers and two spinners, good, but don't prejudice it for what style they bowl.

 

[Precambrian]

Wasim Akram, Fanie de Villiers and Allan Donald were all better at it than McGrath. And obviously no-one can do it every ball, but four out of six per over should guarantee you

You have any statistical backing for that? Seriously.

 

[Rant0r]

dunno if there is such a statistic

few slower balls and cutters to mix it up should do the trick, unless it's reversing, which is rare in the one dayers these days since they change the ball at 34 overs

 

[Rant0r]

Stephen Waugh wasn't that good a one-day player, simple as. 30 was never that good an average, was merely passable.

And it's not true at all that most players with good First-Class grounding succeed at OD cricket at all, they need the skills, and those skills need to be developed at an early age.

As I say, England picking domestic failures is the problem. There is far less domestic one-day cricket now than there was 5 years ago and more as I've already said. But overkill of domestic one-day cricket won't turn good OD players into bad ones. The problem is that there just haven't been enough good OD players in recent times, and quite a few of the few good ones there have been have been ignored in favour of very poor ones.

You want five bowlers and six batsmen, including your wicketkeeper, no need to overcomplicate matters. Some of those bowlers should obviously be able to bat, ideally three at least. If those five bowlers are seamers or three seamers and two spinners, good, but don't prejudice it for what style they bowl.

yeah but a spinner in odi's is essential, wether it be a specialist, part timer, or both.

and if all those skills developed at under age are all what stands them in good stead for international cricket then why does australia have a camp in the top end during winter for players already in the first class scene ?

 

[zaremba]

Stephen Waugh was a wholly average OD player even if he did play in 4 WCs, Dean Jones hardly ever scored many runs outside dead Tests, I could go on.

Hmmmmmm.... Not the most persuasive couple of points you've ever made if I may say so Richard.

Dean Jones was a fine Test batsman.

As for Steve Waugh, his impact in important ODIs (if there is such a thing as an important ODI) suggested a one-day player who was rather better than "wholly average".

• In 33 matches in 4 World Cups his batting average was 49, his bowling average 30.
• He bowled a world-cup clinching spell at the death in the 1987 final
• He played an important innings in the semi-final v South Africa (famed for Gibbs' drop).

 

[Richard]

You have any statistical backing for that? Seriously.

You can't really have any statistic for number of Yorkers bowled, and accuracy of hitting Yorker when aiming for Yorker, but Wasim is pretty well accepted as the best death bowler in ODI history by just about everyone I've ever conversed with, and Donald and PSdeV were damn brilliant at it as well.

 

[Richard]

dunno if there is such a statistic

few slower balls and cutters to mix it up should do the trick, unless it's reversing, which is rare in the one dayers these days since they change the ball at 34 overs

Slower deliveries and cutters are generally the biggest way death-bowlers err. Usually, such balls get smashed. Lost count of the number of times I've seen bowlers hit pinpoint Yorkers four times then try a slower-ball and see it whacked into the stands.

 

[Richard]

yeah but a spinner in odi's is essential, wether it be a specialist, part timer, or both.

Not really. If a spinner is one of your best bowlers, one is essential. If he's not, he isn't.

and if all those skills developed at under age are all what stands them in good stead for international cricket then why does australia have a camp in the top end during winter for players already in the first class scene ?

Australia and England aren't the same thing. We've got enough evidence that if batsmen from this country don't learn to bat in one-day cricket in their teens, they never will.

 

[Richard]

Hmmmmmm.... Not the most persuasive couple of points you've ever made if I may say so Richard.

Dean Jones was a fine Test batsman.

He obviously wasn't the worst, but most of his Test success which wasn't in dead games came in 1989-1989/90. Aside from that season, he had precious few innings of major note in live games.

As for Steve Waugh, his impact in important ODIs (if there is such a thing as an important ODI) suggested a one-day player who was rather better than "wholly average".

• In 33 matches in 4 World Cups his batting average was 49, his bowling average 30.
• He bowled a world-cup clinching spell at the death in the 1987 final
• He played an important innings in the semi-final v South Africa (famed for Gibbs' drop).

The innings against SA was in the last Super Six game, not the semi, and it is so hopelessly overrated for precisely that reason. Had Gibbs not celebrated prematurely, none of it would've happened.

I'm aware Waugh's performance was up in WCs, but over his ODI career he wasn't anything more than decent.

 

[krkode]

Hmmmmmm.... Not the most persuasive couple of points you've ever made if I may say so Richard.

Dean Jones was a fine Test batsman.

As for Steve Waugh, his impact in important ODIs (if there is such a thing as an important ODI) suggested a one-day player who was rather better than "wholly average".

• In 33 matches in 4 World Cups his batting average was 49, his bowling average 30.
• He bowled a world-cup clinching spell at the death in the 1987 final
• He played an important innings in the semi-final v South Africa (famed for Gibbs' drop).

It is true that Steve Waugh is quite capable of rising to the occasion. That is different than saying he is a great ODI batsman in general, though. Or at least not as good at it as he was in tests. In tests, you could easily lump him with Gavaskar, Tendulkar, Ponting. But in ODIs, I don't think he belongs in the upper echelons of great ODI batsmen like Jayasuriya, Tendulkar, etc.

 

[Precambrian]

You can't really have any statistic for number of Yorkers bowled, and accuracy of hitting Yorker when aiming for Yorker, but Wasim is pretty well accepted as the best death bowler in ODI history by just about everyone I've ever conversed with, and Donald and PSdeV were damn brilliant at it as well.

Bowling yorkers is the only criteria? I hoped you'd be having the figures like someone posted James Anderson's death bowling figures a while back. And you mean to say McGrath fed the batsmen with half volleys and length balls at the end?

 

[Richard]

Bowling yorkers is the only criteria?

It is for what I was talking about - my comment was a reply to this comment

no one can hit the blockhole every ball, except mcgrath

I wasn't talking about death-bowling as a whole, though obviously bowling Yorkers is the biggest criteria in a good death-bowler by far.

I hoped you'd be having the figures like someone posted James Anderson's death bowling figures a while back.

It would be possible to give someone's last-10-overs figures for ODIs played in the last 7 years, but it'd take quite some time and digging around. And before 2001/02, you'd be struggling as no-one covered all ODIs ball-by-ball in a freely available on a continuous basis format.

And you mean to say McGrath fed the batsmen with half volleys and length balls at the end?

Of course not, McGrath was a brilliant death-bowler, he just wasn't the best of the modern era. Being the 4th-best (or so) is hardly a disgrace, is it?

 

[zaremba]

He obviously wasn't the worst, but most of his Test success which wasn't in dead games came in 1989-1989/90. Aside from that season, he had precious few innings of major note in live games.

Hmmm - 210 odd v India in 1 million degree heat - one of the greatest innings in Test history

The innings against SA was in the last Super Six game, not the semi, and it is so hopelessly overrated for precisely that reason. Had Gibbs not celebrated prematurely, none of it would've happened.

No actually I did mean the Semi Final, in which he got a very important half century (I may be wrong in thinking that was the game in which Gibbs dropped him).