Ponting not a complete batsman - Harbhajan

[Precambrian]

With all due respect, whether you consider Ponting to be "good" vs spin is really not the argument. It's his successes against spin. And without a shadow of a doubt, he has been more than successful. Notice I did say "almost anyone". Whilst I wouldn't put him in the class of Andy Flower or Brian Lara, I would put him a clear notch below them.

In matches vs Murali he averages 57.
In matches vs Kumble he averages 60.
In matches vs Saqlain he averages 77.
In matches vs Vettori he averages 70.
In matches vs Kaneria he averages 100.

...these are some of the best spinners in Ponting's career. Indeed, even when Murali came here last time he said the main threat and best player of spin was Ponting.

Anyway, this is a digression to my point that no one would possibly call spin a weak-point for Ponting.

Can you segregate the above figures Home and Away pls? Because finger spinners always suffer in Australia due to lack of help from the pitches there.

 

[tooextracool]

With all due respect, whether you consider Ponting to be "good" vs spin is really not the argument. It's his successes against spin. And without a shadow of a doubt, he has been more than successful. Notice I did say "almost anyone". Whilst I wouldn't put him in the class of Andy Flower or Brian Lara, I would put him a clear notch below them.

In matches vs Murali he averages 57.
In matches vs Kumble he averages 60.
In matches vs Saqlain he averages 77.
In matches vs Vettori he averages 70.
In matches vs Kaneria he averages 100.

...these are some of the best spinners in Ponting's career. Indeed, even when Murali came here last time he said the main threat and best player of spin was Ponting.

Anyway, this is a digression to my point that no one would possibly call spin a weak-point for Ponting.

He has been 'successful' only when you clutter it by looking at the overall picture as you have just done. However, in my post I clearly emphasised the fact that Ponting was a poor player on a turning pitch against a good spinner. I do not think it takes a lot of skill in playing a bowler bowling at 55mph when the bowler cannot turn the ball from off to middle (or vice versa), most semi-decent batsman should. However, in order to truly judge how poor Ponting is against spin, one has to look at the way he bats on pitches that are conducive to turn.
Ponting has been fortunate, because he hasnt played a good spinner on a lot of turners outside of the subcontinent and hes only really played 22 odd tests in the subcontinent out of a total of 120 odd. Out of those 22, 12 have been in India where hes been dismal, and people like to call that an aberration, even though it is closer to reality regarding his actual ability against the turning ball.
In fact, his highest score in the 2nd innings (either 3rd or 4th inning when the ball usually turns more) against either Sri Lanka or India anywhere in the world is 53.

Tbh I cant bother rating Ponting's ability against spin until I see him scoring runs in the 3rd or 4th innings of a test match against a quality spinner on a turning wicket. Its all fair and good to score runs against a spin bowler on a first day wicket with little wear and tear, but it doesnt make you a good player of spin.

 

[Migara]

Who said success only in India makes you a "complete batsman"?

So, you equally should believe that success only in Australia makes you a complete batsman?

 

[Ikki]

So, you equally should believe that success only in Australia makes you a complete batsman?

And how did you find that implication by my post?

 

[Migara]

And how did you find that implication by my post?

This is for the record, and the logic is direct.

 

[Ikki]

He has been 'successful' only when you clutter it by looking at the overall picture as you have just done. However, in my post I clearly emphasised the fact that Ponting was a poor player on a turning pitch against a good spinner. I do not think it takes a lot of skill in playing a bowler bowling at 55mph when the bowler cannot turn the ball from off to middle (or vice versa), most semi-decent batsman should. However, in order to truly judge how poor Ponting is against spin, one has to look at the way he bats on pitches that are conducive to turn.
Ponting has been fortunate, because he hasnt played a good spinner on a lot of turners outside of the subcontinent and hes only really played 22 odd tests in the subcontinent out of a total of 120 odd. Out of those 22, 12 have been in India where hes been dismal, and people like to call that an aberration, even though it is closer to reality regarding his actual ability against the turning ball.
In fact, his highest score in the 2nd innings (either 3rd or 4th inning when the ball usually turns more) against either Sri Lanka or India anywhere in the world is 53.

Tbh I cant bother rating Ponting's ability against spin until I see him scoring runs in the 3rd or 4th innings of a test match against a quality spinner on a turning wicket. Its all fair and good to score runs against a spin bowler on a first day wicket with little wear and tear, but it doesnt make you a good player of spin.

Ponting away from home:

Sri Lanka - 50.11
Pakistan - 92.2
India 20.8

They're the 3 test sides with notable spinners. The thing is, no matter how you cut it, Ponting has scored runs against everybody (spin or otherwise) except for against India in India. And looking at some of those bowlers do just as well in the earlier innings and even if they don't they improve slightly. Then you fail to take into account that pitches often spin from day one in Sri Lanka - especially since they'll spin more then most places ever will. Or how about the tests in Sharjah against Pakistan? Or that someone like Murali spins it regardless of the day and that his 2nd inning and 3rd inning average is the same and that is only 1 run inferior to his 4th inning average. It's also hardly his fault when he scores big earlier and his bowlers wrap the game so early there are no 2nd innings to bat.

It would kinda like be like saying Tendulkar is not actually good against seamers because in the 3rd/4th innings his away average is 20 against the best pacers of the time (Aus/Saffies/Pakistan/WIndies). Or that because he averages 37 everywhere else but Sydney Tendulkar didn't really succeed in Australia? I reckon the levels of scrutiny are getting ridiculous once you reach that kind of level.

Anyway, whether "you" think so or not is not important for me. Whether his successes indicate as such and someone like Murali thinks he is one of the best in the world says much more for me.

 

[Ikki]

This is for the record, and the logic is direct.

You're still not making any sense. Failure in one place nor success in a specific place won't make you incomplete nor complete if in other instances you are lacking.

 

[Migara]

You're still not making any sense. Failure in one place nor success in a specific place won't make you incomplete nor complete if in other instances you are lacking.

Good. That will go in to records for later use.

 

[Ikki]

Good. That will go in to records for later use.

you say that as if I've ever said anything to the contrary.

 

[tooextracool]

Ponting away from home:

Sri Lanka - 50.11
Pakistan - 92.2
India 20.8

They're the 3 test sides with notable spinners. The thing is, no matter how you cut it, Ponting has scored runs against everybody (spin or otherwise) except for against India in India. And looking at some of those bowlers do just as well in the earlier innings and even if they don't they improve slightly. Then you fail to take into account that pitches often spin from day one in Sri Lanka. Or how about the tests in Sharjah against Pakistan? Or that someone like Murali spins it regardless of the day and that his 2nd inning and 3rd inning average is the same and that is only 1 run inferior to his 4th inning average.

Not sure exactly what those stats are, but they dont seem to concern the point I made. Murali may spin it regardless of the day, but its blatantly obvious that hes far more potent as the game goes on than he is at the start. Kumble and Harbhajan have similarly better records in the 3rd and 4th innings than they do in the first. The reason why some of them have comparable 2nd innings averages with 3rd inning averages is because they pick up cheap wickets at the end of the 2nd inning as the pitch starts to wear.

Of course there are pitches where the ball does turn from day 1, but it is difficult to argue that this is the case in the SL series where Murali took 3/150 when Ponting scored 105* or when Saqlain took 4/136 in Sharjah when Ponting scored 141. The only test that goes against this trend is his performance in Kandy in 1999 which by all accounts was a turner from day 1 but his performances in this test seem like an exception to the rule rather than the norm.

 

[Ikki]

Not sure exactly what those stats are, but they dont seem to concern the point I made. Murali may spin it regardless of the day, but its blatantly obvious that hes far more potent as the game goes on than he is at the start. Kumble and Harbhajan have similarly better records in the 3rd and 4th innings than they do in the first. The reason why some of them have comparable 2nd innings averages with 3rd inning averages is because they pick up cheap wickets at the end of the 2nd inning as the pitch starts to wear.

How is he much better in other innings when the his 2nd innings performances are superior to his 3rd and 4th innings?

Of course there are pitches where the ball does turn from day 1, but it is difficult to argue that this is the case in the SL series where Murali took 3/150 when Ponting scored 105* or when Saqlain took 4/136 in Sharjah when Ponting scored 141. The only test that goes against this trend is his performance in Kandy in 1999 which by all accounts was a turner from day 1 but his performances in this test seem like an exception to the rule rather than the norm.

The reality is, it's hard to spread your successes across innings just to appease your critics. If you score well early, you're not bound to follow up that score in the consequent inning with another high score because batsmen don't tend to score their 100s that frequently. In the case of Ponting where his 1st innings average against Pakistsan away is like 100+ it's no wonder he scored less in subsequent innings, especially when you consider in many of those he never played in the 4th innings. Or against Kumble who's weapon isn't actually spin but bounce and speed.

 

[biased indian]

^ what is the avg when home matches are removed ....may be u can keep sydney in that...not saying that ponting a good player of spinner but he is not among one fo the best to play spin for sue

 

[G.I.Joe]

I can't believe Ponting had no say in the timing of the release of his Captains Diary. Idiots.

 

[Top_Cat]

Tbh I cant bother rating Ponting's ability against spin until I see him scoring runs in the 3rd or 4th innings of a test match against a quality spinner on a turning wicket. Its all fair and good to score runs against a spin bowler on a first day wicket with little wear and tear, but it doesnt make you a good player of spin.

Bit harsh considering we seldom see such pitches any more. Can't remember the last one, well, anywhere!

 

[Jono]

India vs. South Africa 3rd test 2008.

 

[Ikki]

^ what is the avg when home matches are removed ....may be u can keep sydney in that...not saying that ponting a good player of spinner but he is not among one fo the best to play spin for sue

Those are away (not home) figures.

Bit harsh considering we seldom see such pitches any more. Can't remember the last one, well, anywhere!

Precisely. Pitches do not deteriorate to the level where a batsman averaging in the 60s on said pitches is suddenly going to become "mediocre" simply because of a pitch that is a few days older.

 

[silentstriker]

Actually, he is very good at it - one of the best His performances against Murali, Saqlain and Kumble (all 3 better than Harbi) attest to that.

One of the best? No. Not even the best on his own team. I'd take both Hayden and Clarke in a heartbeat over him for spin.

 

[Ikki]

One of the best? No. Not even the best on his own team. I'd take both Hayden and Clarke in a heartbeat over him for spin.

Hayden, possibly. Clarke? No. Great technique for spin, great feet. But he lacks the success IMO to be considered ahead of Ponting. Maybe in the future though. And TBF, if there is any team that can play spin as good as the Indians it's Australia.

 

[Jono]

I think even the biggest Ponting fanatic would acknowledge that Michael Clarke is a better player of spin than Ponting.

Katich is an awesome player of spin too (record against India attests to that).

 

[Ikki]

I think even the biggest Ponting fanatic would acknowledge that Michael Clarke is a better player of spin than Ponting.

Katich is an awesome player of spin too (record against India attests to that).

Hmm. This is how I look at it: Mendis might look to be a better spinner than Kumble but I wouldn't pick him ahead of Kumble just yet - if he were to still play and were in decent form. Same goes for Ponting who has made much more runs against the same sides with the same spinners.