*Official* Australia in decline thread

[Richard]

I could just as easily have quoted the 1980s - the exact same applies in '82/83 and '89, for example.

And really, the 1960s and 1970s aren't obscure history, cricket in terms of the playing skill required is broadly the same now as it was then.

Fingerspin is as un-useful in Australia now as it was in the 1960s, and as un-useful in England now as at any time since the 1970s. And wristspin is as it has ever been - something for which most who try will never be particularly good, while the tiniest select few will be exceptional indeed.

 

[Precambrian]

I could just as easily have quoted the 1980s - the exact same applies in '82/83 and '89, for example.

And really, the 1960s and 1970s aren't obscure history, cricket in terms of the playing skill required is broadly the same now as it was then.

Fingerspin is as un-useful in Australia now as it was in the 1960s, and as un-useful in England now as at any time since the 1970s. And wristspin is as it has ever been - something for which most who try will never be particularly good, while the tiniest select few will be exceptional indeed.

Exactly. The lack of a decent wrist spinner is going to damage Australia's prospects of maintaining what they've been doing for more than a decade now. They might win the Ashes, but the margins will never be the same, unless of course England tests new lows. And they will never another series in India or Sri Lanka or if they play, in Pakistan.

 

[Richard]

Of course it is, but the lack of a decent wristspinner damages the prospects of almost all teams, almost all the time.

You cannot expect a good wristspinner more than once every 3 or 4 generations. Occasionally you'll be lucky and get one straight after another or even (in the case of Grimmett and O'Reilly) two at the same time. But these are very rare exceptions.

Anyone hoping for another Warne any time soon is always likely to be disappointed. It's just basic common-sense that Warnes don't come along every day, and that when a Warne retires (as everyone has to do some day) it's going to weaken the team.

The point is that most of the time, Australia don't need to pick spinners. When they do have a Grimmett, O'Reilly, Warne or Benaud, great, pick him. But these times are going to be in the minority, not the majority.

 

[howardj]

The end result? Australia won't be quite as dominant as they were a couple of years ago. I don't think we'll be seeing 5-0 Ashes or as many series clean sweeps, but it's not like Australia will suddenly start getting trounced. Simply, I think there will be more 1 or 2-0 series wins with draws becoming much, much more common for the Aussies.

I think we'll go back to what we were like in about 1992-1994.

That is, one of the top teams but not clearly the top team.

 

[Precambrian]

Of course it is, but the lack of a decent wristspinner damages the prospects of almost all teams, almost all the time.

You cannot expect a good wristspinner more than once every 3 or 4 generations. Occasionally you'll be lucky and get one straight after another or even (in the case of Grimmett and O'Reilly) two at the same time. But these are very rare exceptions.

Anyone hoping for another Warne any time soon is always likely to be disappointed. It's just basic common-sense that Warnes don't come along every day, and that when a Warne retires (as everyone has to do some day) it's going to weaken the team.

The point is that most of the time, Australia don't need to pick spinners. When they do have a Grimmett, O'Reilly, Warne or Benaud, great, pick him. But these times are going to be in the minority, not the majority.

Another thing is that in the period you mentioned, Australia hardly used to tour India or the subcontinent. That meant their spinners were never really tested on conditions and against batsmen who can play them well. Nowadays that has changed. The FTP has made it compulsory for such tours to take place in the said period. So the absence of a good spinner will be all the more evident.

 

[Richard]

Well Australia did manage to go without a subcontinental win for 22 years or something, between 1969/70 and 1992.

 

[aussie]

Another thing is that in the period you mentioned, Australia hardly used to tour India or the subcontinent. That meant their spinners were never really tested on conditions and against batsmen who can play them well. Nowadays that has changed. The FTP has made it compulsory for such tours to take place in the said period. So the absence of a good spinner will be all the more evident.

If they got a solid 4-man seam attack like the West Indies of the 80s winning in the sub-continent is not impossible in the future.

Since with all the talk of Australia not having a spinner, India will be losing the core of their batting within the next year, so the effective of the likes of Harbhajan, Mishra, Karthik etc will be negated againts all major sides (not just Australia), because they might not have the regular comfort of big totals to bowl under.

I honeslty don't feel the sub-continent challenge although hard, isn't as daunting a tour as it was in the 90s & before, since most major sides understand Indian conditions pretty well.

 

[shankar]

I honeslty don't feel the sub-continent challenge although hard, isn't as daunting a tour as it was in the 90s & before, since most major sides understand Indian conditions pretty well.

I agree that It's not that hard, but the reason is not that players are more used to the condiditons. It's more due to the fact that since about 2002-2003, the pitches' response to spin has changed on most Indian grounds. Nowadays the piches still assist spin, but the turn is slow enough to allow the batsmen to play off the backfoot easily.

 

[Precambrian]

If they got a solid 4-man seam attack like the West Indies of the 80s winning in the sub-continent is not impossible in the future.

Since with all the talk of Australia not having a spinner, India will be losing the core of their batting within the next year, so the effective of the likes of Harbhajan, Mishra, Karthik etc will be negated againts all major sides (not just Australia), because they might not have the regular comfort of big totals to bowl under.

I honeslty don't feel the sub-continent challenge although hard, isn't as daunting a tour as it was in the 90s & before, since most major sides understand Indian conditions pretty well.

Firstly Australia's chance of getting a 4-pace attack that is similar to that of WI pace attack looks improbable atleast for the next few years.

Secondly, even if they get that, they will be rendered useless in subcontinental conditions. (IIRC, WI didn't win in SL), similarly to what is happening in the current series.

And thirdly, they'll be in for a huge problem with over-rates, a thing WI of 80s didnt have to really bother. The abysmal overrates will have to be made up with slow bowlers bowling a good chunk of the overs, which will negate the effectiveness of the bowling attack itself.

 

[Richard]

I agree that It's not that hard, but the reason is not that players are more used to the condiditons. It's more due to the fact that since about 2002-2003, the pitches' response to spin has changed on most Indian grounds. Nowadays the piches still assist spin, but the turn is slow enough to allow the batsmen to play off the backfoot easily.

India's advantage has been lessened, in short, rather than other teams catching-up.

Something of a shame, IMO. Cricket's diversity depends to no small extent on touring India being a trial by spin, it'd been a documented fact for many years before the recent lessening of it.

 

[Precambrian]

India's advantage has been lessened, in short, rather than other teams catching-up.

Something of a shame, IMO. Cricket's diversity depends to no small extent on touring India being a trial by spin, it'd been a documented fact for many years before the recent lessening of it.

Rather due to the spinners not doing their job properly. The younglings coming up are promising enough.

 

[Richard]

Secondly, even if they get that, they will be rendered useless in subcontinental conditions. (IIRC, WI didn't win in SL), similarly to what is happening in the current series.

I'm not sure West Indies even played a series in SL until 2001/02, by which time they were emphatically past the days of the great seam-bowlers - in fact the last of them, Courtney Walsh, had just the previous series retired.

West Indies won in India in 1983/84, with Marshall, Holding, Roberts and Daniel (I think - I'm pretty sure Garner missed the series with injury), comfortably. This was an awesome effort that precious few are ever likely to repeat. Even South Africa in 1999/2000, whose success depended to no small part on the outstanding seam of Donald, Pollock and Kallis, were also indebted to the fine spinning of Nico Boje.

They also won in Pakistan in 1980/81 with (IIRR) Clarke, Croft, Marshall and Garner.

 

[grapedo]

The Aussie supporters can't accept the fact that they're team is declining and that's why the polls aren't truthful. But the truth is they're decliningand when they lose to india outh africa and england maybe then you eill all learn to accept it and this ****ed up piece of **** website will not be full of biased australian supporters that are arrogant and pull their dicks at night. But when they slide down the rankings you will realikse what ****wits you are!

 

[SirBloody Idiot]

Prefer to pull mine in the morning, tbh.

 

[Prince EWS]

The Aussie supporters can't accept the fact that they're team is declining and that's why the polls aren't truthful. But the truth is they're decliningand when they lose to india outh africa and england maybe then you eill all learn to accept it and this ****ed up piece of **** website will not be full of biased australian supporters that are arrogant and pull their dicks at night. But when they slide down the rankings you will realikse what ****wits you are!

This post is obviously not appropriate. You could have made your point without attacking this website and its members with vulgar insults. If you don't respect the opinions here as a whole then you are free to leave, but do not remain if you insist on trolling like this.

 

[andyc]

The Aussie supporters can't accept the fact that they're team is declining and that's why the polls aren't truthful. But the truth is they're decliningand when they lose to india outh africa and england maybe then you eill all learn to accept it and this ****ed up piece of **** website will not be full of biased australian supporters that are arrogant and pull their dicks at night. But when they slide down the rankings you will realikse what ****wits you are!

I like to think of it as a shower; you can do it in the morning or the night, but both is better.

 

[dontcloseyoureyes]

The Aussie supporters can't accept the fact that they're team is declining and that's why the polls aren't truthful. But the truth is they're decliningand when they lose to india outh africa and england maybe then you eill all learn to accept it and this ****ed up piece of **** website will not be full of biased australian supporters that are arrogant and pull their dicks at night. But when they slide down the rankings you will realikse what ****wits you are!

Butthurt much?

 

[Richard]

The Aussie supporters can't accept the fact that they're team is declining and that's why the polls aren't truthful. But the truth is they're decliningand when they lose to india outh africa and england maybe then you eill all learn to accept it and this ****ed up piece of **** website will not be full of biased australian supporters that are arrogant and pull their dicks at night. But when they slide down the rankings you will realikse what ****wits you are!

One of the umpteen pieces of rank idiocy in this post is the failure to realise that this poll was conducted about 5 years ago, probably more.

 

[howardj]

Roebuck's Prescription:

Australia need to get back to basics, and if that means recalling Andrew Symonds, choosing four aggressive fast bowlers while training a wrist spinner, omitting Shane Watson and Cameron White and, for that matter, a struggling gloveman, then so be it. A team trying to cover up weaknesses does not get anywhere.

Not the worst picks. I guess it would mean something like:

Katich
Hayden
Ponting
Hussey
Clarke
Symonds
Ronchi
Lee
Johnson
Clark
Hilfenhaus/Noffke

 

[haroon510]

Ya.. Aus is going down big time..