***Official England in India***

[Richard]

On 4 separate occasions since readmission, Australia and SA have played six Tests (three in each country) within a very short space of time, in 3 out of the 4 cases (1993/94, 2001/02 and 2005/06) in the same season. This will become 5 in 2008/09.

While these are obviously, rightly, counted as separate three-Test series for official purposes (and should they have different results of course they'd never be cumulated) it's been highly common to see the results cumulated, and for obvious reasons. Six Tests in the same season (or within nine months), even if in different home territories, are clearly very similar to a six-Test series in one territory.

 

[GIMH]

Yeah, have heard you make this point before, also remember the commentators saying so when I watched the last series between the two

This would also mean we whooped New Zealand 4-1 in Tests this year but lost 6-2 in ODIs (correct me if I'm wrong).

Four Tests is the way forwards IMO, accounting for the fact that there will usually be at least one draw then it gives you the best chance of a result

 

[Richard]

Yeah, have heard you make this point before, also remember the commentators saying so when I watched the last series between the two

This would also mean we whooped New Zealand 4-1 in Tests this year but lost 6-2 in ODIs (correct me if I'm wrong).

I guess so although ITBT it doesn't quite feel the same where England are involved as the English season is notably different from that of other countries. To an extent the same applies to West Indies too. Mind, it'd be hard to argue there was more in common between 1996/97 and 1997/98 than 2007/08 and 2008.

 

[aussie]

No, not neccessarily. White was woefully below his best in the summer of 2001, having got injured. After that injury, he was never really the same bowler again, though he continued to give glimpses of it for another couple of years until he was well-and-truly finished as a bowler by another injury in 2002/03.

Don't remember him having any injuries leading up to Birmingham test. Either way, i can't see White bowling at his best doing what Freddie did in 05. But Freddie could (and can) definately matches White's sub-continental exploits in the coming years, although White was probably the more dangerous expontent of reverse swing.

 

[Richard]

Don't remember him having any injuries leading up to Birmingham test.

Missing the previous 2 Tests (and the ODI series) passed you by?

Either way, i can't see White bowling at his best doing what Freddie did in 05. But Freddie could (and can) definately matches White's sub-continental exploits in the coming years, although White was probably the more dangerous expontent of reverse swing.

Well I can TBH. If he bowled well enough. Sadly he only ever really did that for a year, so there's no way of saying fo' sho'.

 

[zaremba]

Missing the previous 2 Tests (and the ODI series) passed you by?

Well I can TBH. If he bowled well enough. Sadly he only ever really did that for a year, so there's no way of saying fo' sho'.

You're right about White. He was so ridiculously below Test standard it wasn't funny, but in 2000 he had a funny turn, fell into a ditch, hit his head and suddenly turned into a seriously quick reverse-swing bowler for about a year. Then faded back to the mediocrity from whence he came.

I remember him hitting Sarwan with a bouncer in 2000 - a really vicious ball, particularly from his innocuous-looking run-up and action.

 

[Richard]

I don't really think it was just funny-turn-ism though (apart from the fact he'd actually bowled damn well pre-funny-turn in 1999/2000). It's hard to understate just how good White's bowling was for that year between Jan '00 and March '01.

It's a real shame he got that injury in 2001, because we'll never really know whether it was just a mediocre bowler suddenly rising up for one very brief period or someone making the most of his talents but being allowed to do so only very briefly by them being stripped from him (he was never quite as consistently quick post-injury, for instance) just as he was making the most of them.

As I said - the fact that even despite the injury he still showed glimpses of his old self post-2001 makes me think the latter is more likely TBH.

 

[Furball]

Was White capable of bowling it at 90mph+, or am I getting confused with someone else around that era?

 

[GIMH]

IIRC he bowled the quickest recorded ball by an Englishman

 

[Richard]

Was White capable of bowling it at 90mph+, or am I getting confused with someone else around that era?

And how. He could get it down at 90mph+ without even doing much more than jogging to the crease off a handful of paces.

Gough was at his quickest around the same time too, though you could tell every delivery cost him every ounce of effort he possessed, like Flintoff. The both-ways swing looked pretty effortless though.

That was the best thing about Gough-Caddick-Cork-White - all four of them had something they made look effortless.

 

[Richard]

IIRC he bowled the quickest recorded ball by an Englishman

Not sure that's ever actually been substantiated however. I never saw him get much above 91-92, but as I say - that was when apparently only going at 70-80% effort.

 

[Uppercut]

Doesn't it make you wonder how fast he could have bowled if he'd really went for it?

 

[Richard]

Yeah, 'course it always did. I always thought "surely he could get up to 97-98mph?" But I don't think we ever found-out for sure.

 

[Goughy]

He had a very simple and pure action due coming to seam bowling late.

I think he maxed out though in terms of pace. He was very efficient in his action.

Changing it would have propably lead to a loss of pace.

He could be very quick. In fact he was sneaky quick. He just didnt do it every game and wasnt capable of doing it every game. Thats why, despite capable of peaking at 90+ mph, he isnt classed as a fast bowler.

I still remember that ball when he pinned Crowe

 

[andruid]

On 4 separate occasions since readmission, Australia and SA have played six Tests (three in each country) within a very short space of time, in 3 out of the 4 cases (1993/94, 2001/02 and 2005/06) in the same season. This will become 5 in 2008/09.

While these are obviously, rightly, counted as separate three-Test series for official purposes (and should they have different results of course they'd never be cumulated) it's been highly common to see the results cumulated, and for obvious reasons. Six Tests in the same season (or within nine months), even if in different home territories, are clearly very similar to a six-Test series in one territory.

Could this be a model for Test cricket in the future?

 

[Richard]

I hope not TBH, I like it very much with Australia vs South Africa, but it's never really struck me as something that'd work with other teams.

Might be wrong though and I guess the only way to know would be to find-out. It'd certainly be interesting in that you could more convincingly say who was better home and away without worrying about wholesale team changes in the meantime.

 

[aussie]

Missing the previous 2 Tests (and the ODI series) passed you by? .

Lol, ah yes PAK came before AUS that year, remembering the OT test that i went to White didn''t play.

Well I can TBH. If he bowled well enough. Sadly he only ever really did that for a year, so there's no way of saying fo' sho'.

Without doubt he was at the peak of how bowling powers from WI 2000 to SRI 01, after the injury he lost pace but he still remained effective up until the winter to IND 01 for me.

So yea Australia missed the best of Craig White, but for me its under-rating Freddie's achievements in 05, to say White could have easily matched those feats or TEC's notion that White could do things Freddie could only dream of.

 

[Richard]

Well there's no doubt White could do things Flintoff could only dream of - bowl at 90mph without apparently expending all that much effort (as I and others have said, Flintoff's every delivery clearly takes every ounce of effort he possesses, good as the results often are). White was (being a former fingerspinner) a far more skilled bowler of the off-cutters than Flintoff too, though I never saw him bowl a leg-cutter, which Flintoff does occasionally manage to do.

And I don't really think it's under-rating Flintoff's achievements at Edgbaston, Old Trafford, The Oval and to an extent Trent Bridge to say White could've matched them. Those 4 Tests saw some sensational bowling, but White produced something pretty similar in the home summer of 2000 and winter of 2000/01. If White had happened to manage to produce it against Australia in 2001 (against a stronger batting unit if only fairly marginally) I don't think their performances would be adjudged any different and rightly so.

 

[aussie]

One thing which may have prevented a fit White from matching Flintoff's performances of 2005 in 01, was the extreme difference in conditions in the respective summers.

In 01 is was pretty flat expect for that test where Tudor took 5 for & then again looking back at that summer of 01 the 4-man pace attack that destroyed a weak Windies team the year before, really didn't step up in 01. So on a more general note could a fit White have done better than Gough/Caddick?

 

[Richard]

Certainly, as Gough and, especially, Caddick were far below their best in 2001 and indeed neither ever managed to reach the heights they had once hit again from 2001 onwards. However it'd be true to say that none of the 2000 fab-four came close to touching the heights of the previous summer. Cork and White had both suffered serious injures (and both clearly suffered from the change of ball); Caddick had no such excuse; and Gough, well, he could've been worse but it was disappointing to see him fail to deliver at the time which should really have been about the peak of his career. And sure enough, it turned-out to actually be the end of his career.

I don't agree that the pitches of 2001 were mostly flat though. The ball didn't swing much that summer (or any of the next 5), sure, but the only pitch that had nothing in it for the seamers was The Oval, which was pancake-esque (though Warne got plenty out of the footmarks). Edgbaston didn't seam much but was uneven; and Lord's, Trent Bridge and Headingley all offered movement off the seam (though Headingley bizarrely flattened-out from time to time during the match).