Battle of the Australians - Mk II

[Perm]

It is possible that the comment was made about Australian batsman, in which case you should ignore my post.

 

[Indipper]

Will go with Chappell. More ruthless captain, more stylish batsman.

 

[Magrat Garlick]

Ponting

 

[PhoenixFire]

I love watching Ponting, he is such a gun batsman, but Chappell was better IMO.

 

[Ikki]

Hammond? Sobers? Barrington? Hutton? Sutcliffe?

I know it's in your opinion, but the records of those chaps are pretty darn impressive my friend.

Yes, I was talking about Australian batsmen but I think it also applies internationally as well. I do not wish to demean some of the other batsmen mentioned but few of those batsmen played as many opponents as Ponting and even fewer had a record as universally complete as Ponting's. Guys like Hammond, Sobers and Tendulkar all have a record where they have one or more opponents that they really did not succeed against. Ponting has even less than that, only IN India has he failed. And he is as prolific as any of them, if not moreso. So, he certainly is in good stead.

How much you choose put value on this is your prerogative. In the bowling stakes, a universally great record does not sway me enough to rate a Marshall over a Lillee for example. But still, it's a fact that Marshall or a McGrath were universally successful.

 

[Prince EWS]

Chappell.

 

[bagapath]

Yes, I was talking about Australian batsmen but I think it also applies internationally as well. I do not wish to demean some of the other batsmen mentioned but few of those batsmen played as many opponents as Ponting and even fewer had a record as universally complete as Ponting's. Guys like Hammond, Sobers and Tendulkar all have a record where they have one or more opponents that they really did not succeed against. Ponting has even less than that, only IN India has he failed. And he is as prolific as any of them, if not moreso. So, he certainly is in good stead.

How much you choose put value on this is your prerogative. In the bowling stakes, a universally great record does not sway me enough to rate a Marshall over a Lillee for example. But still, it's a fact that Marshall or a McGrath were universally successful.

i still think it is a very tough call to choose between border, harvey, g.chappell, ponting and, may be, hayden for the second best aussie batsman after bradman. if you think ponting is the best you have a case. but so will the fans of these other champion batsmen

 

[Perm]

i still think it is a very tough call to choose between border, harvey, g.chappell, ponting and, may be, hayden for the second best aussie batsman after bradman. if you think ponting is the best you have a case. but so will the fans of these other champion batsmen

Not to mention Steve Waugh, Stan McCabe, Vic Trumper and Arthur Morris. All of the above (except Hayden, and perhaps Trumper) have fair claims for being Australian's second best Test batsmen after Bradman.

 

[aussie tragic]

Chappell

 

[Perm]

Yes, I was talking about Australian batsmen but I think it also applies internationally as well. I do not wish to demean some of the other batsmen mentioned but few of those batsmen played as many opponents as Ponting and even fewer had a record as universally complete as Ponting's. Guys like Hammond, Sobers and Tendulkar all have a record where they have one or more opponents that they really did not succeed against. Ponting has even less than that, only IN India has he failed. And he is as prolific as any of them, if not moreso. So, he certainly is in good stead.

How about Len Hutton? The only real statistical weakness he has as an opener is two Tests in Pakistan and one in New Zealand at the back end of his career, otherwise he was pretty dominant against every team he played and in every country too. This too, at a time when New Zealand were incredibly weak and perhaps undeserving of their Test status. Obviously he didn't play as many teams as Ponting, but you can only compare what they have acheived in their respective careers.

How much you choose put value on this is your prerogative. In the bowling stakes, a universally great record does not sway me enough to rate a Marshall over a Lillee for example. But still, it's a fact that Marshall or a McGrath were universally successful.

Isn't that bordering on selective ignorance though, to an extent? In essence you are using Ponting's universally great record to place him above Sobers, Hammond etc while you aren't placing as much emphasis on it with Lillee, McGrath and Marshall. Obviously there are other factors affecting our judgement of players, but it seems odd you will use Ponting's record to place him as high as you do, while not taking as much notice of it in Marshall's case.

 

[SJS]

Greg Chappell

 

[Ikki]

i still think it is a very tough call to choose between border, harvey, g.chappell, ponting and, may be, hayden for the second best aussie batsman after bradman. if you think ponting is the best you have a case. but so will the fans of these other champion batsmen

I think I said the that though.

 

[Ikki]

How about Len Hutton? The only real statistical weakness he has as an opener is two Tests in Pakistan and one in New Zealand at the back end of his career, otherwise he was pretty dominant against every team he played and in every country too. This too, at a time when New Zealand were incredibly weak and perhaps undeserving of their Test status. Obviously he didn't play as many teams as Ponting, but you can only compare what they have acheived in their respective careers.

Well, that last part was kind of the point: Ponting has played more opponents and has had probably a greater range of problems to face. But Hutton is an all-time great and has a complete record too, yes.

Isn't that bordering on selective ignorance though, to an extent? In essence you are using Ponting's universally great record to place him above Sobers, Hammond etc while you aren't placing as much emphasis on it with Lillee, McGrath and Marshall. Obviously there are other factors affecting our judgement of players, but it seems odd you will use Ponting's record to place him as high as you do, while not taking as much notice of it in Marshall's case.

I am not saying that is the ONLY reason Ponting is better than them. But it is a fact about him that the others don't have. I think Ponting is as talented as all the names mentioned, scored at a rate to comparable - if not better - with all those mentioned, has had the kind of peak very few have had, has done it against all kinds of opponents...there are many positives to his record. And having more success over more opponents is another positive. The weightings you place on each one is going to give you a different determining factor. I've also seen Ponting, whereas I haven't Hutton, and I am sure that sways me also - especially if they are statistically close.

With Marshall, for example, I take it into account too, but I think Lillee's other qualities (like being a lone wolf and being able to hunt in a pack) is more important - also several other reasons why - and so for me, the fact that he is universally good is not going to make the difference, especially because Lillee's record is very complete also.

Whereas with Ponting and Tendulkar, for example, I don't think there is much between them and the universal thing is more of a factor. Something similar to Lara and Tendulkar, I think Tendulkar and Lara are neck and neck, but this facet sways it towards Tendulkar somewhat.

I am trying to explain, but I guess the simplest way to illustrate is that it really is a case by case basis almost to some extent because very few players are really "the same". For me, Warne is so great, and he doesn't have a good record in India, but because of his unbelievable qualities aside from that, I am willing to forgo a bowler who has probably a better universal record simply because against all the others I think I am in better stead with Warne.

Again, I say, to each their own.

 

[Perm]

Interesting thoughts, that was all I was after

 

[weldone]

i still think it is a very tough call to choose between border, harvey, g.chappell, ponting and, may be, hayden for the second best aussie batsman after bradman.

No Steve Waugh in that list! Hope that was a mistake...

 

[weldone]

Ricky Ponting

 

[nightprowler10]

Chappell 11, Ponting 6

Round 3: Battle 4

Shane Warne vs Dennis Lillee

Shane Warne

VS

Dennis Lillee

 

[Ikki]

Why does this battle have to happen now?!

There are probably only 2-3people I rate above Lillee, and unfortunately one of them is Shane Warne.

 

[Magrat Garlick]

Haha wtf, some insane quarters.

Warne, to weigh up for SS.

 

[BoyBrumby]

Warne really. Even if one rates them as pretty much on a par with their bowling, Warne's lower order batting carries the day. Could've been a bowling all-rounder with slightly more application for my money. His avearge doesn't reflect his ability.