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who should retire?

retirement blues


  • Total voters
    45
  • Poll closed .

SJS

Hall of Fame Member
His B sample came back yesterday and confirmed the positive reading. :)
Now that (ex) President Musharraf is gone, surely he can blame it on Mush and his dirty politics and claim complete innocence and a CIA sponsored conspiracy supported by the Zionists and mischievous Indian secret service etc.:)
 

adharcric

International Coach
Why would anyone want to retire from his profession which :-

a. Pays him well
b. The Bosses want him there and happy with him

Would you give up your day job because you couldn't match your performance as a youth despite your bosses wanting you there and willing to pay you ?
Never said that they necessarily would or that they'd want to, merely that they should if they care about the national side. The understandable, selfish approach that you've described breaks my assumption. That said, none of these cricketers need income from the BCCI to make a good living - I'm sure they're all set financially for quite some time, especially Tendulkar (the one who I used for the hypothetical case). If it comes to the point where their performances are poor and they're getting selected for the wrong reasons, I'd be disappointed if they still kept going.
 
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SJS

Hall of Fame Member
Its amazing. Now the cricketers are responsible for the selectors not having balls .... assuming that biological deficiency is what makes them select the teams that they do select !!

Laxman, and then Kumble, and then Dravid and now Ganguly, never had to retire from one day cricket for the selectors for the selectors to drop them from that format of the game. I wonder what makes Test cricket different in this respect ?
 

SJS

Hall of Fame Member
Peter Roebuck thinks its the 'end of the day's play' for Saurav Ganguly. Roebuck writes the obituary of Ganguly's career and pays him handsome tributes in so doing.

Stumps for Sourav
For the Indian middle order, it has become a matter of survival, and Ganguly is the most vulnerable

As a rule, the lower a player bats the weaker his position. Nor is Ganguly a reliable catcher at slip, which makes him even more vulnerable than his contemporaries. Moreover his career figures give him less leeway. Dravid averages roughly 12 more runs an innings than him, and he has mostly batted in the critical position of first wicket down

Peter Roebuck
August 20, 2008
------------------------

Sorry Sourav, but the sands of time have run out. It's been an extraordinary career that deserves to be saluted and celebrated, but all good things come to an end. How many captains have led their team to a series victory over Australia, and also to a World Cup final? How many leaders have presided over a transformation in the fortunes and reputation of their team as Ganguly has done over India's? It has been an honourable contribution, but the sporting life is transient even as its memories are imperishable. All too soon the indispensable becomes the expendable.

If it is over then it brings to an end a notable and productive period in Indian cricket. Beyond argument it is as captain that Ganguly will chiefly be remembered. It is not intended as an insult to his deft work with the willow, rather a recognition of his achievements as a leader. From the outset he shared with Sunil Gavaskar and Arjuna Ranatunga a willingness to pull the beards of western presumption, an amusing diversion but also a way of instilling self-esteem in his charges. To him it was not serious, for he lacked the resentment that drove along these feisty predecessors. Popularity appealed to him, but he had no truck with populism. It is not in his nature to curry favour. Insofar as he was aristocratic of manner - though not birth - it lay in his refusal to be petty or to hold grudges or to take much notice of debate. He had the confidence to be himself. It sent a powerful message to players inclined towards modesty.

Yet it is a mistake to regard Ganguly as a cricketer from another age, as a man of leisure, out of place in a hectic period, an amateur lost amid professionals. After all he prospered in this age, and must therefore have fulfilled most of its numerous requirements. He has been tangential to his time, not apart from it. He has never wanted to be mechanical, yet retained respect for the hardworking run-collectors. Just that originality was his way forward. He could not succeed as another man.

It doesn't mean, though, that Ganguly lacked cunning. Often his apparent disdain worked in his favour. Certainly it had a marked effect on opposing fast bowlers. Somehow the very sight of Ganguly strolling out to bat, looking disconcertingly pleased with himself, caused them to commence snorting and pawing the ground. Opposing leather flingers felt themselves affronted and vowed vengeance. Line and length were abandoned and bone-shakers were sent down, few of them directed at the stumps. By and large opposing captains encouraged the assault, and only afterwards counted the cost. Probably Ganguly had irritated them beforehand. Provocative fields were set, and the crowd became involved, egging on the aggressors or barracking for their man. Ganguly usually managed to look perplexed by all the palaver. But he knew what he was about. He had put the bowlers off their game on the way to the crease.

Had Ganguly been remotely as frail as he seemed, he could not have lasted as long, would have been broken in transit. Along the way, too, he played some of the most rousing innings the game has known. His inspirational hundred in Brisbane all those years ago confirmed the strength of his backbone, while his introductory hundred at Lord's pointed towards the sweetness of his timing. However vulnerable he looked, he kept taking the lonely journey out to bat. He advanced towards the fire, sometimes fanned its flames.

Even now, his nerve has held. It is not his courage that has faltered, or his eyesight. Rather his feet that have slowed, and sometimes nowadays shots must be played before the correct position has been assumed. Perhaps, too, desire has waned, for a man only has so many performances in him before he starts feeling the pinch. Faltering ambition can have various outlets: mental, physical, even technical. All of them point towards a player no longer able to take that extra step.

In the field Ganguly has become a plod. His running between wickets is similarly sluggish, so much so that an alarmed look comes over his face when a partner so much as suggests a quick single. A devotee of silence might as well be given a gossip magazine. It all points towards the lowering of the curtain.

If the Sri Lankan series is anything to go by, India cannot wait any longer to shake up its prestigious middle order. Yet a collective deterioration was already underway. Although it did not get much attention amid the other hue and cry, Ganguly and Rahul Dravid faltered in Australia. In Dravid's case bad luck played a part in his downfall; his dismissal in Perth was questionable and his ejection in Sydney was downright disgraceful. No such license could be given to Ganguly, who was dismissed at the SCG by a catch that may have been doubtful - though the edge was clear-cut. Meanwhile others scored piles of runs, not least Sachin Tendulkar and VVS Laxman. It'd be madness to drop either of them.

But the setbacks in Sri Lanka brought matters to a head. Several factors lay behind the failures. Obviously it is easier to open the batting in that neck of the woods than to walk to the wicket with two clever spinners operating in tandem. But Test batsmen must adjust their games to meet whatever challenges arise. These senior players did not apply their experience or live up to their reputations. Nor did their outfielding or work between the wickets have much to commend it. By and large Ganguly was the worst offender.

Accordingly the time has come to break up the most resourceful and capable middle order India has known. Since several batsmen failed it might seem unfair to pick on Ganguly. As a rule, though, the lower a player bats the weaker his position. Nor is Ganguly a reliable catcher at slip, which makes him even more vulnerable than his contemporaries. Moreover his career figures give him less leeway. Dravid averages roughly 12 more runs an innings than him, and he has mostly batted in the critical position of first wicket down. Much the same applies to Tendulkar. India ought to think long and hard before replacing him. Laxman, too, batted superbly in Australia, and sometimes held the lower order together in the most recent series. It also worked for him that he did not play as an icon player in the IPL. Failures of any sort take a toll on a player's morale, and both Dravid and Ganguly fell short of expectation. Nor has Jacques Kallis fully recovered from his poor showing.

If Ganguly's time is indeed up then he deserves to be remembered as one of the mightiest warriors to take to the field in the colours of his country. That he did not much resemble a warrior added to the effect. He has been underestimated, even resented by those inclined to confuse sweat with effort. His ability to get under the skin of his opponents was matched by a talent for getting into the minds of his players. He did not seem to worry what anyone thought, so long as his players retained faith in him and the cause. He provoked opponents as a means of showing his youngsters, especially, that there was nothing to fear. At his best he gathered his players into a potent force. It was only when he backed off that it went wrong, for then India played a tentative and doomed game. Mostly he was audacious and adventurous, and India rose with him. But Ganguly's stint as captain ended long ago, and ever since, he has been on shaky ground
.
 

adharcric

International Coach
Its amazing. Now the cricketers are responsible for the selectors not having balls .... assuming that biological deficiency is what makes them select the teams that they do select !!

Laxman, and then Kumble, and then Dravid and now Ganguly, never had to retire from one day cricket for the selectors for the selectors to drop them from that format of the game. I wonder what makes Test cricket different in this respect ?
Listen, if you think the selectors will drop these guys at the right time, I'll take back everything I've said. I'm just not as confident that it'll happen with Tendulkar. Not that it matters right now, as he's the one farthest from warranting being dropped.
 

SJS

Hall of Fame Member
Listen, if you think the selectors will drop these guys at the right time, I'll take back everything I've said. I'm just not as confident that it'll happen with Tendulkar. Not that it matters right now, as he's the one farthest from warranting being dropped.
First of all, this reduces the discussion to Tendulkar and not the others since, as I have already suggested, they HAVE been dropped without retiring.

If you accept that, we can discuss Tendulkar :)
 

ret

International Debutant
the dropping of Laxman, Kumble, Ganguly and Dravid from ODIs is a different issue as when they were dropped from ODIs they still had Tests but once they get dropped from tests, where will they go?!!!

the point is not about getting dropped without retiring here as was the case with ODIs. If these guys get dropped from tests TOO then it's almost curtains to their international career as considering their age and with their performance graph constantly going down, it leaves them with little opportunity to make a come back, esp since their replacements have to be given enough chances to make a mark .... so getting dropped from tests 'too' is almost equal to an end to their international careers and with their performance dipping, getting dropped is around the corner sooner or later

In a sensitive situation like this whats the best scenario for them, i.e. announce their retirement and thus go out with their heads high or eventually retire from international cricket after getting dropped with little chance of making a comeback in any of the international cricket formats

the fact is even if they have one or two good series here and there, it will still get harder and harder for them to maintain any kind of high consistency level. and it's not their fault as this happens to usually most things in the last stages of its product cycle

I think it's in the interest of some of them to bow out of the game with their heads high and not carry on for too long as they can't survive for long based on one or two good performances here and there, which doesn't help team India's cause as well. I would recommend some of them to call quits after a good series or a good performance

Looking back, there were some good opportunities for some of them to call quits, like after the series in Australia, the win at Kanpur [when they struggled at home for the most part of the series against SA] .... with the disastrous performances in SL and the tough series against OZ coming up, the work is not only cut out for them but also for the selectors, who probably are kind enough to be waiting for these greats to make a call before dropping them permanently .... time is running out from all corners and it's sad that no one could see that coming and advise these guys accordingly .... one has to accept that they are in the final stage of their career and having a good exit strategy is a part of the game

As a fan I would be more sad if they are dropped with little chance of making a comeback and then eventually retire on a down note. Going out by getting dropped is not something that I would want them to go through

I would prefer them to go with their heads high on their own terms and i think they deserve to go with their heads high for all that they have achieved for Indian cricket and now it's probably the right time for some of them to make that call or they risk going down like many other cricketers in the past
 
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SJS

Hall of Fame Member
Kumble, Laxman, Ganguly and Sehwag have all been dropped from Tests in the past. It is ridiculous to think they cant be dropped now.

Dravid has never been dropped before because this is the first really prolonged dry spell (if that is what we want to call it) in his career. He has never been a candidate for dropping before.

Tendulkar has been in that situation once and wasn't dropped. But he has been away for long periods due to injury and on a couple of occasions to rest. Everytime he has come back from these breaks re-invigourated and has always got intro groove again. Making it obvious that while he may be dropped out for a couple of games if form warrants, he is too good to be dropped for ever - yet.

It is absolute rubbish to say "where" will they go if dropped. Home I suppose is the best answer. Maybe to the nets. Maybe to play some first class cricket if it is going on. What kind of a mindless question is that.

Where do cricketers go when dropped. Anyone in the world have any clue to this amazing query ?
 

Sanz

Hall of Fame Member
Dravid has never been dropped before because this is the first really prolonged dry spell (if that is what we want to call it) in his career. He has never been a candidate for dropping before.
Wasn't Dravid Dropped in 1998/99 ? Or was it only in ODIs ?
 

ret

International Debutant
Kumble, Laxman, Ganguly and Sehwag have all been dropped from Tests in the past. It is ridiculous to think they cant be dropped now.

Dravid has never been dropped before because this is the first really prolonged dry spell (if that is what we want to call it) in his career. He has never been a candidate for dropping before.

Tendulkar has been in that situation once and wasn't dropped. But he has been away for long periods due to injury and on a couple of occasions to rest. Everytime he has come back from these breaks re-invigourated and has always got intro groove again. Making it obvious that while he may be dropped out for a couple of games if form warrants, he is too good to be dropped for ever - yet.

It is absolute rubbish to say "where" will they go if dropped. Home I suppose is the best answer. Maybe to the nets. Maybe to play some first class cricket if it is going on. What kind of a mindless question is that.

Where do cricketers go when dropped. Anyone in the world have any clue to this amazing query ?
i guess, you are missing the big picture

in the past when some of these guys were dropped they had the opportunity to make a come back with time being on their side .... once they get dropped now, it would be difficult for them to come back to the national team again .... this is 2008 and their average age is around 35, iirc and not 30-31. so suggesting that they go back to nets at 35 and then improve and make a comeback to international cricket soon is a ridiculous assumption as their replacements have to be given a decent run of say 10-12 tests, which makes a comeback for most of them almost out of range at in probably 2010 :laugh:

so if they are dropped NOW [and this has no relation to some of them being dropped in the past as age and time was with them then and thats why this thread talks abt retirement and not getting dropped] it's almost curtains to their international career .... and ofc they can continue playing in the domestic, play IPL and guide the youngsters .... retirement is from international cricket

in short, explained with diagrams

Past: dropped from international cricket -----> Net / Domestics ----> comeback .... why? coz they had time on thier side, which implies that they were younger

Now: dropped 2008 -----> net / domestic -----> comeback 2010 when they are = :wheelchai is a ridiculous option .... so getting dropped now from international cricket = like getting dropped 'permanently' from international cricket = retirement in a sense from international cricket

so the better option in my opinion, is that some of them retire and go with their heads high as if they are dropped now, its almost end of the road for them in international cricket [why? see above]

can't make it simpler to comprehend then that^
 
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pup11

International Coach
Chappell's greatness as a cricketer has never been questioned by me, but his performance as captain was pretty pathetic as he is the one who order his brother to bowl underarm. His record as coach has been rather ordinary pretty much every where.
His man management skills are really poor and any comparisons with Dhoni is basically mindless. There is simply NO Comparison.
Since you and me or a common cricket enthusiast can figure those things out, why weren't the people who elected him were able to see all these things before appointing him, that' why i say picking a guy like him who has always had problems in the man-management department was a mistake in the first place, but once he was picked he should have been allowed to run things in the he wanted them to, and if he would have still failed then he was solely to be blamed, but as things ended BCCI was equally responsible for Indian team' poor performance under Chappell' tenure.
The only thing i said made Chappell and Dhoni similar is that, they both are more inclined to give young blood a chance over experienced players.
 

SJS

Hall of Fame Member
i guess, you are missing the big picture
So you see the big picture. Okay sir, tell me why they should be out of the Test side. Tell me for each one of them and leave age out of it. Also tell me whether today is the time to drop them or was that time much earlier, if so when ?

I am all ears and willing to learn :)

PS : Please make bullet points if possible.
 

pup11

International Coach
Listen, if you think the selectors will drop these guys at the right time, I'll take back everything I've said. I'm just not as confident that it'll happen with Tendulkar. Not that it matters right now, as he's the one farthest from warranting being dropped.
Tendulkar just can't be dropped, nobody in the selection panel has the balls to do that, no matter how badly he may perform.
 

SJS

Hall of Fame Member
Tendulkar just can't be dropped, nobody in the selection panel has the balls to do that, no matter how badly he may perform.
But does his performance as of date warrant his dropping according to you ?
 

honestbharani

Whatever it takes!!!
Wasn't Dravid Dropped in 1998/99 ? Or was it only in ODIs ?
yep.. was only ODIs. Never really had too much of a prolonged bad patch in tests, IIRC.. Maybe the one in 2001 juz before the Eden Gardens game.. but not much otherwise... until now.
 

pup11

International Coach
So you see the big picture. Okay sir, tell me why they should be out of the Test side. Tell me for each one of them and leave age out of it. Also tell me whether today is the time to drop them or was that time much earlier, if so when ?

I am all ears and willing to learn :)

PS : Please make bullet points if possible.
As far as i am concerned none of the Indian 4 batting legends SRT, RD, VVS or SG, should be dropped, they all had a bad series in SL, but all of them have been performing consistently enough before that, Dravid is in the worst form of his life, but still he is gritting it out scoring runs by sheer determination.
 

ret

International Debutant
So you see the big picture. Okay sir, tell me why they should be out of the Test side. Tell me for each one of them and leave age out of it. Also tell me whether today is the time to drop them or was that time much earlier, if so when ?

I am all ears and willing to learn :)

PS : Please make bullet points if possible.
1. I am not saying that all of them should retire [from international cricket. i guess thats understood]. And thats why I have various options in the poll, along with 'all of them' option for those who think that all of them should retire and 'none of them' too for those who think all of them still have enough gas in the tank

2. Dravid, Ganguly and Kumble are the ones, i think should consider retiring because I don't see them offering much value apart from occasional good series or performance. At their current performance levels, I wouldn't mind trying out a batsman like Badri, who probably has a decent future than the guys i mentioned. Same for some of the young spinners for Kumble.

and i have no problems with ppl thinking that all of them still have enough gas in the tank but what i don't appreciate is dumbing down the thread with comments llike they were dropped in the past so did they have to retire then [without looking at things in 360 degrees including the time frame which i have explained in my past posts] .... no, i m not discussing dumb things like its selectors call to drop them, it's players call to retire, if they were dropped in the past then did they have to retire lol .... i m looking at the things which are beyond that
 
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SJS

Hall of Fame Member
As far as i am concerned none of the Indian 4 batting legends SRT, RD, VVS or SG, should be dropped, they all had a bad series in SL, but all of them have been performing consistently enough before that, Dravid is in the worst form of his life, but still he is gritting it out scoring runs by sheer determination.
I am glad you think so. I think the only one who has had a prolonged bad patch is Dravid. Here are the averages of the top Indians for the last two calendar years.

Code:
[B]Player        	 Inns	 50s	 100s	 HS	 Runs	 Avg[/B]
V Sehwag	17	2	3	319	1046	65.4
S R Tendulkar	29	7	4	  *154	1287	49.5
V V S Laxman	30	8	2	  *112	1136	47.3
S C Ganguly	36	8	3	239	1565	46.0
G Gambhir	8	3	0	74	318	39.8
M S Dhoni	23	6	0	92	712	37.5
W Jaffer	28	5	3	202	994	36.8
R Dravid	36	6	2	129	1148	35.9
Yuvraj Singh	7	0	1	169	220	31.4
Yuvraj's figures are worse than what 31.4 suggests since 169 of his aggregate 220 came in one innings.

Dravid is the only one from the top order who is struggling though as you say he seems to be showing some revival.

I think this last Test series has to be treated like the series we had in New Zealand before the 2003 WC. Then, due to terrible wickets NO one got any runs worth talking of. This time it was Mendis. Here too everyone struggled. When an entire batting line up falters, you dont sack al of them. Thats stupid with a capital S.

I think we have to look at individual cases and assess what is left in each in cricketing terms.

I think Laxman is not the batsman he once was. With Tendulkar and Dravid, the purity of technique will see them overcome a bad patch. With Laxman it is not technique that makes him a terrific player, it is his intuitive sense of ball play and beautiful hands. These things, once you start losing them, go fast. I hope I am wrong, but I dont see more than a year or so left in him.

Tendulkar's problem is not his game but motivation. It doesn't look as if he is enjoying his game. He really needs something to motivate him. Thats why a rest always does him good. Time away from the game rekindles his spirit and hunger. I wish he would play carefree cricket without worrying for the runs and then when he stops enjoying them he may call it a day. He does not have to prove anything to anyone. Nor should a hundred international hundreds (which I am sure is all that drives him now) be his goal because all these will make him play a game alien to his nature which will never give him joy.

You can easily see that there are innings when the spontaneity is missing and he seems to be 'working' at his innings. This is not his nature and it will do him no good. If he sorts out his head he can play for more years for he is physically fit (I am not talking injuries) and he is not a passenger as a fielder.

Dravid has the most cricket left in him of the lot but he is playing his innings in his head. Every failure seems to bother him more and more. The exaggerated defense he offers and the complete oblivion to even pushing for singles indicates that he is playing too much to occupy the crease. He was never a fast scorer but there was a fluidity in his game. I feel his experience as captain towards the latter part of it left him very unhappy and he is clearly a very sensitive chap who keeps his emotions bottled up inside him. I don't know when I last saw him smile. Someone needs to put his arm around him and tell him he is wanted and should forget everything and just play. He is a tortured soul. Maybe a time away will do him good. But one big knock and his problems will be history. With Sachin, they will keep coming because he is much less motivated than Dravid.

Finally Ganguly. He is the weakest batsman of the lot. His main strength left is his spirit. His game, which was never of the caliber of the others. is fast going downhill. He came back to make a statement and he has done it. He needs to really decide that he will play one last series and then not offer himself for selection. But he is also the one most likely to burst out with a sparkling 70 or 80. He is also the worst fielder of the lot. He has the least to gain by staying.

I think this is the last year for Ganguly and Laxman wont go beyond middle of next year.
Sachin is unpredictable and Dravid will go for longest unless the captaincy for Tests passes to Dhoni and the new skipper has new ideas as he has in other matters.

The selectors have to start preparing. There is no way India can manage with all of them going together, thats why a proper succession has to be planned. Players have to be identified to replace each over time and they have to be given opportunities so that its clear which are up to it. Then they have to be eased into the team one by one over the next two-three years.

Sachin and Dravid can go on but surely they need a break. Sachin has got his.
 

Sanz

Hall of Fame Member
once he was picked he should have been allowed to run things in the he wanted them to, and if he would have still failed then he was solely to be blamed, but as things ended BCCI was equally responsible for Indian team' poor performance under Chappell' tenure.
That's not how things work and should work. No one will and should get to run things the way he wants. And I am not blaming Chappell for all of India's woes, but just for his mistakes. As the coach his executions weren't in the best interests of Indian Cricket, although his ideas were.

The only thing i said made Chappell and Dhoni similar is that, they both are more inclined to give young blood a chance over experienced players.
I dont think Dhoni does that kind of mindless thing. Besides Youth over experience isn't the best thing anyway.
 

adharcric

International Coach
But does his performance as of date warrant his dropping according to you ?
That's not the point. We're discussing a hypothetical situation that could come about with someone of Tendulkar's stature, not his current situation.

Excellent post a few above this one - sums it all up beautifully.
 

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