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***Official*** South Africa in England

Should Freddy be included in team for the second Test?


  • Total voters
    44

Perm

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Hmm. As has been discussed before, when i talk of the top echelon, i mean a very very small proportion of players. How many of those mentioned would you rather have in your ODI side than Ricky Ponting, Mike Hussey or Matthew Hayden? For me, none of them- although Smith, Tendulkar and Sangakarra do have a case, so i'll give you those.
Well, given that all three play very different roles within the Australian side, it is hard to say. Obviously different players have strengths that contribute to their worth within the side and those factors are worth contemplating when comparing them to batsmen from other teams, who may have different roles. You can't make a fair and accurate comparison between Matthew Hayden and Mahendra Singh Dhoni because one is an opener, and one is a middle/lower order bat who keeps wicket too.

When talking about the uppermost echelon of ODI batsmen in the world currently I would be inclined to say that Dhoni is currently the best ODI batsman in the world, closely followed by Sachin Tendulkar. Dhoni led his team to victory in the Commonwealth Bank series, took them to the final of the Asia Cup and is topping the averages for 2008. Obviously his average of 76.20 is boosted by not-outs, but his contribution to India has been invaluable.

There is a whole group of players (about ten) who can lay claim to being among the best ODI batsmen in the world presently, among them Dhoni's team-mates Gautam Gambhir, Sachin Tendulkar and Yuvraj Singh. Matthew Hayden and Ricky Ponting haven't played much in 2008, otherwise they would be challenging Dhoni strongly for the mantle while others like Sangakkara and Chanderpaul could do likewise. If Graeme Smith, Jacques Kallis and AB de Villiers perform well in the upcoming ODI series their stocks will be boosted heavily.

To answer your question properly, who would I rather have in my team instead of Hayden, Ponting and Hussey? Personally only Ponting would make my current ODI side, if all players were fully fit, and my top seven would look like this.

Gambhir
Tendulkar
Ponting
de Villiers
Chanderpaul
Dhoni
 

Perm

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
He played one game in the CB series, where he scored 70odd before having his rib broken by McGrath.

So I'm not sure how that qualifies as being "out of form".
82* IIRC (which I might not)
Yeah, he got 82 at the MCG, but hadn't really done much leading up to the World Cup. I guess it would be harsh to say he was out of form, as he still averaged a touch over 40 from the start of the 2006 English summer through to the start of the World Cup, but he wasn't quite as effective as he had been earlier in his career. None of his innings against Sri Lanka or Pakistan in 2006 were that good IMO, while his unbeaten 90* against the West Indies in the Champions Trophy is largely overlooked.
 

Perm

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
SA ODI team for Eng ODIs

Smith
DeVilliers
Gibbs
Amla
Kallis
Duminy
A Morkel
Boucher
Ntini
Steyn
Nel
Smith (c)
Gibbs
Kallis
de Villiers
Duminy
Boucher (wk)
A. Morkel
M. Morkel
Steyn
Ntini
Langeveldt

Only problem there is that Steyn, Ntini and Langeveldt are all genuine bunnies, while Morne Morkel is a bit too high at #8 too. Could possibly strengthen the batting by slotting Vernon Philander in.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
Langeveldt has retired from ODIs.

(Fortunately)

BTW Morne Morkel in ODIs is a recipe for disaster with the number of no-balls he usually bowls. Not that I expect them not to pick him - simply getting the prediction in early.
 

Perm

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Langeveldt has retired from ODIs.

(Fortunately)

BTW Morne Morkel in ODIs is a recipe for disaster with the number of no-balls he usually bowls. Not that I expect them not to pick him - simply getting the prediction in early.
Haha, thought I saw his name in the South African squad, must have been seeing things. Not really sure whether to replace him with Philander or Nel, as the tail looks very poor.
 

popepouri

State Vice-Captain
Langeveldt has retired from ODIs.

(Fortunately)

BTW Morne Morkel in ODIs is a recipe for disaster with the number of no-balls he usually bowls. Not that I expect them not to pick him - simply getting the prediction in early.
10 games, 20 wickets, average of 20...It's not that bad. He's bowled no-balls in that.
 

TT Boy

Hall of Fame Member
Richard's verdict pretty much confirms that Morne Morkel will be one of the best bowlers in the one day series. I believe Richard was 'critical' of New Zealand playing Tim Southee in the recent one day series against England and we all know what happened there....
 

tooextracool

International Coach
When talking about the uppermost echelon of ODI batsmen in the world currently I would be inclined to say that Dhoni is currently the best ODI batsman in the world, closely followed by Sachin Tendulkar. Dhoni led his team to victory in the Commonwealth Bank series, took them to the final of the Asia Cup and is topping the averages for 2008. Obviously his average of 76.20 is boosted by not-outs, but his contribution to India has been invaluable.
I disagree with that. Dhoni would surely make everyone world XI sides for his contributions to the team but the best batsman in the world? I highly doubt someone whos yet to have a substantial series outside of the subcontinent can be worthy of such adulation. Hes a very good player with many technical deficiencies that will inevitably mean that he will struggle to score prolifically away from home.

There is a whole group of players (about ten) who can lay claim to being among the best ODI batsmen in the world presently, among them Dhoni's team-mates Gautam Gambhir, Sachin Tendulkar and Yuvraj Singh. Matthew Hayden and Ricky Ponting haven't played much in 2008, otherwise they would be challenging Dhoni strongly for the mantle while others like Sangakkara and Chanderpaul could do likewise. If Graeme Smith, Jacques Kallis and AB de Villiers perform well in the upcoming ODI series their stocks will be boosted heavily.
Im still not completely certain about Gambhir given that almost all of his success thus far has come against subcontinental sides or in the subcontinent, in both forms of the game. Again, best player in the world seems a little too soon

To answer your question properly, who would I rather have in my team instead of Hayden, Ponting and Hussey? Personally only Ponting would make my current ODI side, if all players were fully fit, and my top seven would look like this.

Gambhir
Tendulkar
Ponting
de Villiers
Chanderpaul
Dhoni
Ive spent about 10 minutes trying to understand how AB Devilliers has made your World XI. I know Im not one who watches a lot of ODI cricket these days, but I still have a pretty good feel for what is going on and I cannot honestly fathom how AB De Villiers is in ahead of Andrew Symonds. Even purely from a batting perspective, Symonds is easily a better player than half the players listed on that list let alone Devilliers. If there is a case for an Indian batsman in that side, then Id go for Yuvraj over Gambhir for reasons mentioned earlier and because Yuvraj has been little short of sensational over the last couple of years.

If Chanderpaul plays, Chanderpaul opens. Its easily the position hes been most effective in for his entire career and the only reason he bats down the order for the WI is because it provides more stability to the side and he can fulfill the role of being the team's anchor.
 

tooextracool

International Coach
Richard's verdict pretty much confirms that Morne Morkel will be one of the best bowlers in the one day series. I believe Richard was 'critical' of New Zealand playing Tim Southee in the recent one day series against England and we all know what happened there....
That may very well be the case considering the paucity of good ODI players in England and given the fact that the squad been chosen doesnt even consist of the best players in England. However, I would find it hard to disagree with anyone who is willing to admit that Morne Morkel is a fair bit short of being test or ODI standard at this very moment because quite frankly that would be the truth.
 

tooextracool

International Coach
10 games, 20 wickets, average of 20...It's not that bad. He's bowled no-balls in that.
Filtering out games against substandard sides, which is nearly all of them, its actually 3 games, 7 wickets, average of 20. Not bad, but its only likely to get worse here for him.
 

tooextracool

International Coach
seems a bit strange to me that Ian Trott is in the Lions squad, while not being good enough to merit a place in their 30 man squad for the icc champions trophy.
 

TT Boy

Hall of Fame Member
seems a bit strange to me that Ian Trott is in the Lions squad, while not being good enough to merit a place in their 30 man squad for the icc champions trophy.
Same goes for Eoin Morgan and Kabir Ali.

Michael Carberry was in the 30 but he hasn't been selected for the 'Lions'.
 

gettingbetter

State Vice-Captain
You mean Jon Trott. Funny to see him get off the radar as he did, I seem to recall he was part of a big revolution for the England ODI team, but I think Shah out shone him in one (or two) of the 20/20 games. Should be in the 30 atleast. Even though I have been championing Samit Patel, I think he is suited to the whites rather than the colours.
 

Neil Pickup

Request Your Custom Title Now!
Lions looking very strong today, 70/1 after 13 chasing 210 to win - Prior (opening) and Shah (three) batting well... what that means for the ODI side I really don't know.

Interesting set of Lions bowling figures, too:
Code:
  TT Bresnan     8 1 28 0 3.50  
  SI Mahmood     9 0 35 0 3.88 (1w) 
  DJ Pattinson   7 0 62 1 8.85 (2w) 
  AD Mascarenhas 8 0 26 2 3.25  
  LJ Wright      8 0 22 0 2.75 (1nb, 1w) 
  IJL Trott      6 1 17 2 2.83  
  SR Patel       4 0  9 0 2.25
 

popepouri

State Vice-Captain
Lions looking very strong today, 70/1 after 13 chasing 210 to win - Prior (opening) and Shah (three) batting well... what that means for the ODI side I really don't know.

Interesting set of Lions bowling figures, too:
Code:
  TT Bresnan     8 1 28 0 3.50  
  SI Mahmood     9 0 35 0 3.88 (1w) 
  DJ Pattinson   7 0 62 1 8.85 (2w) 
  AD Mascarenhas 8 0 26 2 3.25  
  LJ Wright      8 0 22 0 2.75 (1nb, 1w) 
  IJL Trott      6 1 17 2 2.83  
  SR Patel       4 0  9 0 2.25
Pattinson to play the first ODI?
 

wpdavid

Hall of Fame Member
Lions looking very strong today, 70/1 after 13 chasing 210 to win - Prior (opening) and Shah (three) batting well... what that means for the ODI side I really don't know.

Interesting set of Lions bowling figures, too:
Code:
  TT Bresnan     8 1 28 0 3.50  
  SI Mahmood     9 0 35 0 3.88 (1w) 
  DJ Pattinson   7 0 62 1 8.85 (2w) 
  AD Mascarenhas 8 0 26 2 3.25  
  LJ Wright      8 0 22 0 2.75 (1nb, 1w) 
  IJL Trott      6 1 17 2 2.83  
  SR Patel       4 0  9 0 2.25
Prior gone in the 30's, which sounds familiar.
 

Dasa

International Vice-Captain
I disagree with that. Dhoni would surely make everyone world XI sides for his contributions to the team but the best batsman in the world? I highly doubt someone whos yet to have a substantial series outside of the subcontinent can be worthy of such adulation. Hes a very good player with many technical deficiencies that will inevitably mean that he will struggle to score prolifically away from home.
I'd think the CB Series would count as a substantial series.
 

Perm

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
I disagree with that. Dhoni would surely make everyone world XI sides for his contributions to the team but the best batsman in the world? I highly doubt someone whos yet to have a substantial series outside of the subcontinent can be worthy of such adulation. Hes a very good player with many technical deficiencies that will inevitably mean that he will struggle to score prolifically away from home.
Perhaps I didn't make it clear enough in my initial post, but I was talking about the best ODI batsmen in the world right now, and to me that is Dhoni. If Hayden and Ponting had played and done well in the West Indies, or Tendulkar had played in the Asia Cup and scored runs then I would have adjusted my opinion on the issue. Basically I was just taking into account the past year or so, in which Dhoni has been very good.

Would you not consider his 347 runs in the Commonwealth Bank series as 'substantial'? Keep in mind he averaged 70 in that series against Vaas, Malinga, Muralitharan, Lee and Bracken while guiding India to a 2-0 victory in the finals. Aside from that series he has only played 22 ODIs outside the subcontinent (excluding teams that aren't ODI standard), with only the 2007 Natwest Series and World Cup falling into the time frame I mentioned. Even though his average of 25 in England looks poor, he actually played a few good cameo's at the end of India's innings and helped level the series at the Oval.

So yeah, aside from the Commonwealth Bank series, he hasn't scored heavily away from the subcontinent, but he hasn't been in this kind of form before either. The Dhoni we've seen since he took over the captaincy has been an excellent ODI batsman, and I don't see why he won't be able to make runs away from home. Obviously he has a few technical issues, but I'd still back him.

Im still not completely certain about Gambhir given that almost all of his success thus far has come against subcontinental sides or in the subcontinent, in both forms of the game. Again, best player in the world seems a little too soon
That is true, but you can't argue with his form in the past year or so. Since emerging as an international class player he has scored heavily and I expect him to continue doing so. His success started with the Commonwealth Bank series and has carried on since then, including the Kiptly Cup and Asia Cup. He hasn't been fully tested outside the subcontinent, but the signs were good in Australia, and his recent form suggests he has come of age as an ODI batsman.


Ive spent about 10 minutes trying to understand how AB Devilliers has made your World XI. I know Im not one who watches a lot of ODI cricket these days, but I still have a pretty good feel for what is going on and I cannot honestly fathom how AB De Villiers is in ahead of Andrew Symonds. Even purely from a batting perspective, Symonds is easily a better player than half the players listed on that list let alone Devilliers. ]If there is a case for an Indian batsman in that side, then Id go for Yuvraj over Gambhir for reasons mentioned earlier and because Yuvraj has been little short of sensational over the last couple of years.
Symonds and Yuvraj are both averaging 30-odd in 2008, and Yuvraj in particular has struggled after his last couple of years have seem him rise to the top of the ODI batting pile. Symond's probably should be in the XI, but I reckon AB de Villiers deserves a bit of credit for how well he has been performing in ODI cricket lately. Basically it was just me trying to promote a player I am quite fond of ;)

If Chanderpaul plays, Chanderpaul opens. Its easily the position hes been most effective in for his entire career and the only reason he bats down the order for the WI is because it provides more stability to the side and he can fulfill the role of being the team's anchor.
I've always been a fan of Chanderpaul opening for the West Indies because it gives him more overs to bat for, and hopefully allows him the chance to score more runs and anchor the innings for longer. However, all the runs he's been making lately have come with him batting in the middle order so I don't think it would be right to put him in the openers spot for this particular exercise.
 

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