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***Official*** South Africa in England

Should Freddy be included in team for the second Test?


  • Total voters
    44

Swervy

International Captain
Hadn't realised until now how much of a form slump Kevin Pietersen has been in in ODIs.

His England career from debut to the end of the World Cup reads: 49 matches, 2008 runs, 5 hundreds, 14 fifties, 1 duck, average 59.05, S/R 91.81

Since the World Cup, it reads 25 matches, 661 runs, 1 hundred, 4 fifties, 3 ducks, average 31.47, S/R 74.52
that means that for over 33% of his careers he has been a crap batsman, although if you split the bad spell down, in the games he has got over 50, he was a world class batsman, but really in hindsight, he should have been dropped for the games he was out for ducks....blah blah blah:)
 

vic_orthdox

Global Moderator
I know it would - that's the point. Saying Harmison was England's best bowler when they had a semi-decent side so should play despite there being little evidence to suggest he'll repeat the performances he put in at that time would be, well, not ********, but nonsensical.
Not necessarily the point. How can somone who should never have been near the ODI side be one of the key components of an England side that actually performed reasonably in ODI cricket?
 

Uppercut

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Hadn't realised until now how much of a form slump Kevin Pietersen has been in in ODIs.

His England career from debut to the end of the World Cup reads: 49 matches, 2008 runs, 5 hundreds, 14 fifties, 1 duck, average 59.05, S/R 91.81

Since the World Cup, it reads 25 matches, 661 runs, 1 hundred, 4 fifties, 3 ducks, average 31.47, S/R 74.52
Hmm, it's in the nature of players who play like he does in ODIS to go through such slumps. The SA equivalent, Gibbs, is also in one of his own.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
Not necessarily the point. How can somone who should never have been near the ODI side be one of the key components of an England side that actually performed reasonably in ODI cricket?
Because sometimes players make rapid improvements in short spaces of time. I presume you remember Harmison of 2002/03? Are you seriously telling me he was anything other than a joke of a ODI bowler at that time? Or that it wasn't very obvious that that was what was going to happen before he even played?

Harmison bowled infinitely better in the summer of 2004 (and, rather surprisingly, in the summer of 2005) than anyone could have expected him to. Hence he played a part in a handful of decent performances. However, he promptly made regressions as quick and as dramatic as the improvements of 2004 and 2005 (and also had a shocking 2004/05 in between those).

Good selections and selections that end-up paying some amount of dividend (and it's not like the dividend of Harmison for ODIs was particularly massive anyway) are not neccessarily the same thing.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
that means that for over 33% of his careers he has been a crap batsman, although if you split the bad spell down, in the games he has got over 50, he was a world class batsman, but really in hindsight, he should have been dropped for the games he was out for ducks....blah blah blah:)
Nonsense.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
Hadn't realised until now how much of a form slump Kevin Pietersen has been in in ODIs.

His England career from debut to the end of the World Cup reads: 49 matches, 2008 runs, 5 hundreds, 14 fifties, 1 duck, average 59.05, S/R 91.81

Since the World Cup, it reads 25 matches, 661 runs, 1 hundred, 4 fifties, 3 ducks, average 31.47, S/R 74.52
I noticed that a decent while ago TBH, it's just starting to become a bit worrying. I suppose something of a plateuing-off after such a sensational start was pretty inevitable, no-one has ever averaged 60 in ODIs over that long a time except Michael Bevan. But he needs to start making a few big runs again sometime fairly soon else we'll have to be questioning whether the bubble's burst.
Hmm, it's in the nature of players who play like he does in ODIS to go through such slumps. The SA equivalent, Gibbs, is also in one of his own.
Gibbs has had several before now, too. Truth is for mine that Gibbs in ODIs has always been a bit of a Sanath Jayasuriya - something of a weak-attack bully. I've never rated him in the top echleon of modern ODI batsmen, the way I think Pietersen very much has the potential to be.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
No, with great respect, you're the one twisting words - Glenn McGrath (to take Goughy's example) was not saying how little he likes to face Harmison - merely what a great bowler he is.
To say what a great bowler someone is you need reasons to be saying it - most people do not simply make random statements for the sake of it. I'd guess the Australian dressing-room at large had reached a consensus following those ODIs that Harmison was difficult to face (as indeed he did seem to be in most of those ODIs) and McGrath was speaking about that.
And as for this -

- you do sound as though you believe you have a Hotline to Truth which has passed everyone else (including those a little closer to the cutting edge than you) by.
Well that's not what I mean, I assure you. That's a truncated sentence and quoted in part sounds wholly different to how it sounds with the rest of the sentence included.
 

stumpski

International Captain
Slightly OT I know, but did anyone watch that programme about South Africa on Sky a couple of days ago? Has it been on before? Recorded it on V+ and watching it now, some of it was familiar (the 'Stop the '70 Tour etc) but interesting stuff for all that.

They've just got up to the 1982 SAB tour.
 

BoyBrumby

Englishman
Slightly OT I know, but did anyone watch that programme about South Africa on Sky a couple of days ago? Has it been on before? Recorded it on V+ and watching it now, some of it was familiar (the 'Stop the '70 Tour etc) but interesting stuff for all that.

They've just got up to the 1982 SAB tour.
They originally showed it in 4 parts in the Saturday lunch breaks during the tests, caught the first one more or less by accident & made a point of watching after that. Was very nicely researched & put together I thought. Admired the candour of Bacher & (particularly) the former SA press officer with regards to Cronje. Would have been very easy to tow the "he made a mistake" line, but their still palpable sense of betrayal spoke volumes for the magnitude of Hansie's crimes.

Gooch & Emburey didn't come out of it too well, Obourne's line abut "giving succour to a barbarous & evil regime" put their "we did it for the money, guv" line into proper context I think. That said I couldn't help but admire Gatt for the way he fronted up on the 90 rebel excursion. Seems like he only joined the tour in a fit of pique after the barmaid incident.
 

stumpski

International Captain
Oh yes, I've caught snippets of that (usually find other things to do in the lunch breaks though) - didn't realise it was the same thing broken down.

Tourists warmed up with a fairly comfortable win at Getty's old pile with Albie Morkel in good form - can't attach too much weight to runs scored off Mark Alleyne and Nathan Astle though.
 

Jungle Jumbo

International Vice-Captain
I was abroad during the final Test and managed to catch only an hour or so of it in a French bar, just after tea on the second day. We saw 12 overs, during which England lost three wickets (Flintoff, Ambrose, Broad IIRC) and scored 16 runs. It must have been our worst hour of the game... so we moved on, later hearing that Harmison had thrown the bat around as soon as we left and the game had switched around again.
 

stumpski

International Captain
At least you found a bar showing it, which is good going in France. Come to think of it, you'd have had a job here for that matter. I only know of two pubs in Maidstone with Sky Sports now.

I take it there wasn't much interest among the locals?
 

Uppercut

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Gibbs has had several before now, too. Truth is for mine that Gibbs in ODIs has always been a bit of a Sanath Jayasuriya - something of a weak-attack bully. I've never rated him in the top echleon of modern ODI batsmen, the way I think Pietersen very much has the potential to be.
Hmm, when Gibbs was at his peak he could score runs very quickly against any attack in the world. I'm not going to check them but i think his stats may flatter him a bit due to that effect- but he has made some huge scores against excellent attacks, in fact he has an ODI century against every test-playing nation.

I'm getting a bit unsure of Pietersen's potential to be a top-echelon ODI player because of his leg-side obsession. Now that i think of it, pretty much all of the best ODI batsmen in the world are Australian.
 

Perm

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Hadn't realised until now how much of a form slump Kevin Pietersen has been in in ODIs.

His England career from debut to the end of the World Cup reads: 49 matches, 2008 runs, 5 hundreds, 14 fifties, 1 duck, average 59.05, S/R 91.81

Since the World Cup, it reads 25 matches, 661 runs, 1 hundred, 4 fifties, 3 ducks, average 31.47, S/R 74.52
I seem to remember him being in (relatively) poor form leading up to the World Cup too, but I'm not entirely sure. Two excellent centuries in that tournament though, one of the highlights IMO.

Still, I'd back him to score heavily in the upcoming series given his past ODI exploits against South Africa .
 

Perm

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
I'm getting a bit unsure of Pietersen's potential to be a top-echelon ODI player because of his leg-side obsession. Now that i think of it, pretty much all of the best ODI batsmen in the world are Australian.
Will respond fully to this later, but Kallis, Smith, Tendulkar, Ganguly, Yuvraj Singh, Dhoni, Sangakarra can all feel a bit hard done by, not to mention (potentially) a couple of others.
 

grapedo

Banned
Australains That's RuBBISH !!!!!

Will respond fully to this later, but Kallis, Smith, Tendulkar, Ganguly, Yuvraj Singh, Dhoni, Sangakarra can all feel a bit hard done by, not to mention (potentially) a couple of others.
That is a load of crap mate. Australai have no consistant odi players what about Graeme Smith he is a gun at odis. And De villiers as well. Not to mention the indians and sri Lankans you're a muppet mate:@
 

grapedo

Banned
Who Cares

To say what a great bowler someone is you need reasons to be saying it - most people do not simply make random statements for the sake of it. I'd guess the Australian dressing-room at large had reached a consensus following those ODIs that Harmison was difficult to face (as indeed he did seem to be in most of those ODIs) and McGrath was speaking about that.

Well that's not what I mean, I assure you. That's a truncated sentence and quoted in part sounds wholly different to how it sounds with the rest of the sentence included.
Who cares about what's happened focus on the future like Dale Steyn and Morne Morkel Mcgrath was over rated and when these 2 are in their peaks we will c that I think
 

grapedo

Banned
I seem to remember him being in (relatively) poor form leading up to the World Cup too, but I'm not entirely sure. Two excellent centuries in that tournament though, one of the highlights IMO.

Still, I'd back him to score heavily in the upcoming series given his past ODI exploits against South Africa .
Yeah mate Piertersen is overrated Smith exposed his weakness He will get carved in the odi series
 

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