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***Official*** South Africa in England

Should Freddy be included in team for the second Test?


  • Total voters
    44

Steulen

International Regular
Can't understand why Broad is back in after one match out and batting at a place which suggests they want him for his bowling.

Having him come in at 8 is a bonus battingwise but that is negated by the two players occupying 6 and 7, who are both too high in the line-up.
 

pup11

International Coach
Flintoff to go 6, Ambrose to go 7 and Broad 8, confirmed on SSN.
That gives England quite a longish tail, Broad and Ambrose have shown that they can hold their own with the bat, but they have hardly done enough to show such faith in their batting abilities, and more importantly Broad has looked very ordinary with the ball in the last few test's now, so if he is not picking up wickets, then even if he scores a few runs that won't make much of a difference.
I am really worried for Freddie, he is coming back from an injury and straight away England are loading with all the burden, they want him to bowl 80-90 overs in a test and then bat in the top six too.
 

Dempo

Cricket Spectator
I don't mind Flintoff batting at six - it's Harmison's recall that's got my goat. I've just done some geek-trekking through his stats and since getting to the top of the world he averages 37 and since that Old Trafford Test in 2006 it spirals to 48. I can't bear his unreliability, dreadful preparation and constant homesick whinging. Even if he takes a bunch of wickets, in my opinion, it's a traversty of cricketing justice that he's back.
 

popepouri

State Vice-Captain
SA names ODI squad.

Graeme Smith (capt), Hashim Amla, Johan Botha, Mark Boucher (wk), AB de Villiers, JP Duminy, Herschelle Gibbs, Jacques Kallis, Albie Morkel, Morne Morkel, Andre Nel, Makhaya Ntini, Justin Ontong, Vernon Philander, Dale Steyn.

Pretty straight forward. Looking forward to the Morkel bros. playing together again.
 

Goughy

Hall of Fame Member
The last Test was the poster game for long batting line ups and how each partnership between good batsmen has an individual value.

So what do England do, shorten their lineup :blink:

Bopara shouldnt be in the squad. But as he is, he should be selected ahead of Broad.

This is the worst managed summer in recent memory.
 

gio

U19 Cricketer
The Harmison recall is an interesting one. It can't be denied that, in his purple patch in 2004, he was a world class bowler. Since then he has often moaned about touring with England, and then moaned about selection. As a result, I seriously question his commitment to the team. However, if he's bowling as well as people say, then it can only be a good thing for England.
 

gio

U19 Cricketer
The last Test was the poster game for long batting line ups and how each partnership between good batsmen has an individual value.

So what do England do, shorten their lineup :blink:

Bopara shouldnt be in the squad. But as he is, he should be selected ahead of Broad.

This is the worst managed summer in recent memory.
I'm off the opinion that the top 6 should be able to get the runs. By playing 7 or 8 or whatever, you're accepting the failure of the top order. Hopefully the knowledge that we only really bat down to 5 will mean the batsman take some responsiblity rather than getting out to dreadul shots chasing the ball.
 

Uppercut

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I'm off the opinion that the top 6 should be able to get the runs. By playing 7 or 8 or whatever, you're accepting the failure of the top order. Hopefully the knowledge that we only really bat down to 5 will mean the batsman take some responsiblity rather than getting out to dreadul shots chasing the ball.
I was thinking about their irresponsible batting earlier, and i have a feeling it could be the result of a need to impress their home crowds. South Africa's job is to ruin the party, something they have done superbly, and as a result batting slowly and carefully in order to blunt the attack has been their weapon of choice.

It's strange because not so long ago, at the OT New Zealand test, England were being heavily criticised for batting too negatively and conceding a first-innings lead as a result.
 

Uppercut

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He's proved he can do it on the past. Stick with him, we all know he has the talent to bat 6.
Do we? He only averages around 30 with the bat. If you have a very strong and stable top five, that's okay, but England have anything but that. I feel, and i don't think i'm alone, that ideally Flintoff should be batting at 7 or 8. The other side of the coin is, i don't rate Bopara, so Flintoff batting at 6 seems just about the best option from this squad.
 

Goughy

Hall of Fame Member
I'm off the opinion that the top 6 should be able to get the runs. By playing 7 or 8 or whatever, you're accepting the failure of the top order. Hopefully the knowledge that we only really bat down to 5 will mean the batsman take some responsiblity rather than getting out to dreadul shots chasing the ball.
You are entitled to that opinion. Its based on a principle rather than reality but you are allowed to hold it.

However, I completely and utterly disagree with you and dont think their is an ounce of evidence to back you up.
 

Goughy

Hall of Fame Member
He's proved he can do it on the past. Stick with him, we all know he has the talent to bat 6.
What does that mean? He is a below average number 6. A few Test centuries do no change that. He has shown neither the technique or mentality to be a good consistent Test batsman. He would be a good 7 and a great 8. Suddenly a potential strength has been turned into a weakness.

Way to go England :blink:
 

Prince EWS

Global Moderator
He's proved he can do it on the past. Stick with him, we all know he has the talent to bat 6.
No, no we don't. He's proven he can be handy with the bat at times and is even prone to the odd "golden run" where he's excellent for a small period. However, he's simply not good enough to bat #6 at Test level and never has been.
 

PavlovsDog

School Boy/Girl Cricketer
What does that mean? He is a below average number 6. A few Test centuries do no change that. He has shown neither the technique or mentality to be a good consistent Test batsman. He would be a good 7 and a great 8. Suddenly a potential strength has been turned into a weakness.

Way to go England :blink:

In theory, it should be irrelevant whether Fred bats 6,7,8 or even lower. Because, again in theory, the Top 5 should be performing to potential and should (once again, in theory) be getting 350/400 runs before the 4th wicket falls and the #6 is due in.

Nick Knight backed this up to a point on yesterday's Pro40 coverage, he said he had been picked as an 'extra' batsman at #6 and felt more pressure than normal because he felt his role was to 'save' the innings when the Top 5 failed and invariably that isn't his natural game, as he would open for Warwickshire.

Again, how many of the batsmen in the England setup (even those on the fringes, like Shah, Key etc) would ever bat as low as 6 for their counties? It's not natural for them.

Either they come in at 450-4 and are under no real pressure to do more than get 'bonus' runs or else they come it at 100-4 and are then expected to turn the innings around, but are often forced to play an unnatural game, because they are thrust into partnersips with tailenders and often fail by trying to force the issue.

For me, this is partially a reason why the likes of Hick and Ramps never fulfilled their promise.

To me, if we lose a game for not getting enough runs, it won't be because Freddie failed at 6, Ambrose failed at 7. In all likelihood it will be because the Top 5 haven't got the runs.

It's time we quit worrying about the runs we are potentially losing at 6-9 and start to ask ourselves why we are not making enough runs at 1-5.
 

silentstriker

The Wheel is Forever
In theory, it should be irrelevant whether Fred bats 6,7,8 or even lower. Because, again in theory, the Top 5 should be performing to potential and should (once again, in theory) be getting 350/400 runs before the 4th wicket falls and the #6 is due in.
That's just an unreasonable expectation. 350-400 runs would mean the top five is averaging 70-80 runs per person. That's never going to happen, and this is why you need a long tail that can bat.

In Australia, one of the best lineups of our time, Gilchrist came in at #7 and bailed Australia out time after time, averaging over fifty for most of his career. They knew the benefits of a long batting lineup, if Gilchrist - a better bat than Flintoff ever will be - could bat at #7 and was perfect there, Flintoff should definitely be seven or eight. Numbers six through eight, and especially six and seven should most certainly be relied on to make useful contributions, and number six should be just as good as the top five. Unlike in bowling, every single player usually gets to bat, and you can never have a tail that's too good at batting, even if your top five is full of Bradman's.
 
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