Sehwag, an all-time Indian great?

[maxpower]

Is Shewag all time great in test ? NO, not yet who knows in the end.
his scores runs very fast, and faster than any of his current teammates, not to mention while opening, I'd say more of his innings have put opposition teams on the back foot than any other current IND player.
How he scores them ? who cares.
There were lots of debates about Gilly being lucky in the beginning, but overtime people realized that's just how he plays and is good at it. Shewag is not Gilly, but he can be.

 

[Dissector]

Oh yeah, the use of LLN, CLT and all of these probabilistic theorems here has been weak - this time, Richard's right as you can't use any of those theorems to conclude that every batsman has similar "luck", outliers always exist.

I don't think anyone is saying that. Sure outliers exist but they are exceedingly unlikely and become less and less likely the more trials you run. So claiming that a player has been "lucky" over a long career is an extraordinary claim which requires extraordinary proof as TC put it. The LLN would be hard to apply rigorously in the cricket context but it helps us understand why it is an extraordinary claim.

 

[adharcric]

I don't think anyone is saying that. Sure outliers exist but they are exceedingly unlikely and become less and less likely the more trials you run. So claiming that a player has been "lucky" over a long career is an extraordinary claim which requires extraordinary proof as TC put it. The LLN would be hard to apply rigorously in the cricket context but it helps us understand why it is an extraordinary claim.

Fair enough.

 

[Perm]

and still he is averaging a Bradmansique 90+ against Pak

The rate at which Sehwag has scored runs against Pakistan is truly phenomenal, not too dissimilar from what Younis Khan has done to India since 2004 (averaging 88.06). Simply put though, some of the pitches that India and Pakistan have played on in the last few years have been absolutely ridiculous, see Multan and Rawalpindi 2004 and Lahore and Faisalabad in 2006.

Sehwag has played nine Tests against Pakistan, spread over three series. In that time, India's top six batsmen (featuing Tendulkar, Ganguly, Laxman, Dravid and others) have scored 4492 runs and been dismissed 73 times for an average of 61.53 per dismissal. Of those 4492 runs, Sehwag has scored 1276 at an average of just over 91. A very impressive record, but not as good once you start to scratch the surface, and this is even before we consider some of the poor bowlers Pakistan have had on show against Sehwag and the luck he has benefitted from (I know for a fact he was dropped when around 50 during his 309 at Multan in 2004, but I'm unsure of details on other incidents)

 

[SJS]

There is a lot to Sehwag's performance that stands out.

He is unique

- He is not just the only Indian with a triple, he has two.

- He has five scores above 200 (not four as I said earlier) which puts him on top with Dravid. Surely he will overtake him. and be alone at the top.

- He has scored 11 centuries at a trot which are upward of 150, this is an all time world record.

His Away Record

- He averages in the fifties even away from home.

- More than half his centuries are away from home.

- One of his triple hundreds is away from home.

He is not a Minnow Basher

- His best is against the best sides. Here is how he fares against them

- Australia : 53.9
- South Africa : 51.3
- Sri Lanka : 57.5
- Pakistan : 91.1​

- I have heard people talk of his record against NZL without thinking for a minute that of the four Tests he has played against them, two were in that terribly low scoring series in 2002-03 when only two fifties were scored by India in the series, Sachin averaged 25, Ganguly 7.3 and Laxman 6.5 !!

- In 19 Test series for India against non-minnows, he has failed to score a century in a series only five times and failed to averages over 40, (there is one in which he averages 39.5) only four times. Never for two series in succession. That is remarkable consistency.

- Its amazing how he is the only Indian batsman who does not get a big boost by scoring runs against minnows, Not one of his fifteen Test centuries are scored against Bangladesh or Zimbabwe, forget doubles and triples to show he is a basher of poor attacks. Clearly, it is better attacks that bring out the best in him. He has just one fifty in five Tests against them.

- In fact , in five Tests against the minnows he has scored just 199 runs. If you remove the minnows his figures improve !!​

 

[ret]

Yes. It is my criteria based on the question you asked which was :-
some
"IS Sehwag an all-time Indian great, along with Gavaskar, Tendulkar and Dravid?"

All the three gentlemen are Legends of Indian Cricket. Putting Sehwag ,now itself, in the same bracket will mean that he has achieved as much as them as a batsman.

If Sehwag retires today, will the history put him in the company of these 3 men, Certainly not.

Lastly, If you can not respect the opinions of others, dont bother about asking questions. Mocking and attacking anyone whose opinion doesn't match yours isn't going to work in your favor.

This statement is so stupid that I am not even going to try.

it's not just the Indian batsmen who have scored 10K runs but many other batsmen from other countries have scored those runs. based on your criteria, for example

for Australia ----> Waugh, Ponting and Border would qualify as greats but someone like Chappell won't [thats even if we leave Bradman out of it]

for WI ----> Lara would qualify as a great but Sobers and Viv won't

Are the guys in the list way ahead then those who have not scored 10K runs? if no then why is it that only for India to be an all-time great, you have to score 10K runs

as far as I see, what you did is found something in common b/w Gavaskar, Tendulkar & Dravid and made that a criteria. and ofc, you won't say that a minimum of 34 100s are required to be an all-time Indian great as Dravid then will not qualify

 

[ret]

The rate at which Sehwag has scored runs against Pakistan is truly phenomenal, not too dissimilar from what Younis Khan has done to India since 2004 (averaging 88.06). Simply put though, some of the pitches that India and Pakistan have played on in the last few years have been absolutely ridiculous, see Multan and Rawalpindi 2004 and Lahore and Faisalabad in 2006.

Sehwag has played nine Tests against Pakistan, spread over three series. In that time, India's top six batsmen (featuing Tendulkar, Ganguly, Laxman, Dravid and others) have scored 4492 runs and been dismissed 73 times for an average of 61.53 per dismissal. Of those 4492 runs, Sehwag has scored 1276 at an average of just over 91. A very impressive record, but not as good once you start to scratch the surface, and this is even before we consider some of the poor bowlers Pakistan have had on show against Sehwag and the luck he has benefitted from (I know for a fact he was dropped when around 50 during his 309 at Multan in 2004, but I'm unsure of details on other incidents)

Every good batsman is suppose to score runs on good batting pitches, but Sehwag has out-shone his peers. YK has been good against India but don't know how he has done against other countries. Sehwag's performances against Pak are amongst his many good performances.

2ndly, you can scratch the surface of just about any batsman and say that others have scored runs too. what is it suppose to mean? if you show that xyz scored runs on the trip to Australia then I can show that Sehwag was amongst the runs there too. if you can show that xyz scored runs, then i can show that abc scored runs too. if you can show that xyz didn't score runs against X team then i can show that abc didn't score runs against Y team.

On luck factor, I m sure others too would have benefitted be it a LBW not given, a run out chance not taken, etc, along with dropped catches

so whats the point of your post?

 

[silentstriker]

Every good batsman is suppose to score runs on good batting pitches, but Sehwag has out-shone his peers. YK has been good against India but don't know how he has done against other countries. Sehwag's performances against Pak are amongst his many good performances.

2ndly, you can scratch the surface of just about any batsman and say that others have scored runs too. what is it suppose to mean? if you show that xyz scored runs on the trip to Australia then I can show that Sehwag was amongst the runs there too. If you say that xyz scored runs against SA then I can show that ABC scored runs there too

On luck factor, I m sure others too would have benefitted be it a LBW not given, a run out chance not taken, along with dropped catches

so whats the point of your post?

It means that when the team doesn't really need the runs, Sehwag is great at scoring them.

With a couple very notable and exceptional performances that are the exception and not the norm.

 

[Uppercut]

It means that when the team doesn't really need the runs, Sehwag is great at scoring them.

With a couple very notable and exceptional performances that are the exception and not the norm.

Well, no, because as has been pointed out repeatedly, Sehwag scores much more in games India end up losing. So he scores barrel loads of runs when India need them most, but often not quite enough of them.

 

[ret]

It means that when the team doesn't really need the runs, Sehwag is great at scoring them.

With a couple very notable and exceptional performances that are the exception and not the norm.

i can't stop laughing as when was a time when a team didn't need runs?

anyways, elaborate your claim with examples

 

[Lillian Thomson]

India have won 3, drawn 9 and lost 3 when the Wag machine has made a century.

 

[ret]

India have won 3, drawn 9 and lost 3 when the Wag machine has made a century.

that shows that Sehwag played a big role on 15 occasions, of that

on 3 occasions, the bowlers backed Sehwag's performances
on 9 occasions, he helped India to get a competitive total or saved them from a loss
on 3 occasions, some of the others failed when he played his part

 

[Perm]

Grasping at straws there mate, they are pretty big generalisations.

 

[ret]

Grasping at straws there mate, they are pretty big generalisations.

would you scratch the surface then

 

[ret]

btw, I found a cool interaction b/w SJS and Dissector on other thread and couldn't resist posting it here as it belongs here as much as on the other thread

BTW this game has raised Sehwag's average in India wins to 50.29.

Even averages dont tell the whole story.

Who really influences the results of the match ?

In the 59 Tests that Sehwag has played, in 19 of them an Indian batsman has been the Man of The Match. Here is the break up

• Jaffer : 1
• Ganguly : 2
• Tendulkar : 3
• Sehwag : 6
• Dravid : 7

Quite revealing. Now before someone jumps up and says Sehwag scores big runs in pointless drawn games - I checked the MOM only for games won by India. Now here the bowlers are even more dominant, naturally. Still Indian batsmen did manage to bag NINE MOM awards in matches India won. Here is the break up

• Ganguly : 1
• Sehwag : 3
• Dravid : 5

I suggest people look at it and ponder, not just on Sehwag but also on the missing names

Vijay Merchant?

 

[haroon510]

i would certainly rate him higher than gavasker and dravid..

 

[Sanz]

i would certainly rate him higher than gavasker and dravid..

 

[Ikki]

It means that when the team doesn't really need the runs, Sehwag is great at scoring them.

With a couple very notable and exceptional performances that are the exception and not the norm.

What a statement! Sehwag starts the innings, therefore if others score they are the ones doing so when it is not needed.

 

[Ikki]

Didn't know Sir Don Bradman played for India. Please keep Sir Don out of your petty discussions.

So the only difference is that he isn't Indian, eh?

Even though Tendulkar had achieved much more(after 100 test innings) as a cricketer than Sehwag has done at this stage. Had he retired at that stage, he would not, IMO, be an all time Indian great.

Yes, that's your opinion, but I'd ask who you'd think would be better than a Tendulkar retiring in 1999? He'd have played 100 innings and about 10 years worth of Test cricket. He'd be averaging mid-to-high 50s as well. Which Indian batsman, apart from Gavaskar, even compares?

Tendulkar, Dravid, Gavaskar have raised the bar for any Indian batsman to be considered an 'All Time Great'. For any current/future Indian batsmen to be considered at par with these 3 , 10000 Runs is the minimum Criteria. Until Sehwag does that, he will always be a notch below. Sehwag is well on his way, just not there yet.

Fortunately for Sehwag, there are about 7 specialist batting positions in an all-time XI and whilst those 3 occupy 3, he can more than definitely get into the others. Especially the one where he is best at.

 

[Sanz]

So the only difference is that he isn't Indian, eh?

Is that the only difference ? Why dont you tell me ? Come on this is supposed to be an intelligent discussion. The question asked was Is Sehwag comparable to Indian All time greats like Tendulkar, Dravid, Gavaskar. The answer, IMO, is no. because those three have achieved much more than Sehwag has at this stage of his career e.g. 10K runs.

Yes, that's your opinion, but I'd ask who you'd think would be better than a Tendulkar retiring in 1999?

If Tendulkar had retired in 1999, he would not be considered as great as Gavaskar as a 'Test Batsman'. I would have put him firmly behind the likes of Gundappa Vishwanath, Vengsarkar, Amarnath, Azhar, Merchant etc.(please note that is considering Tendulkar's test career ended in 1999)

He'd have played 100 innings and about 10 years worth of Test cricket. He'd be averaging mid-to-high 50s as well. Which Indian batsman, apart from Gavaskar, even compares?

Probably None, but that's not enough to put him at par with Gavaskar as an all time great. And with the exception of Merchant - Vengsarkar, Azhar, Amarnath, vishwanath all had more accomplished test careers than Tendulkar had by 1999. Its not just about Numbers.