***Official*** South Africa in England

[Uppercut]

Yea, that's about the best defense the Panesar lovers can come up with.

It's more that you blame him for everything. At the moment he should be borderline for the team. But criticising Panesar is all you seem to do, it's getting tiresome.

Poor first-innings batting was the main factor in this defeat, because over the subsequent four days, they've been the better team.

 

[Isolator]

haha, funny stuff from Atherton: "Who have I got? Who do you think I've got!"

 

[Scaly piscine]

If the next test wasn't at The Oval I might think you have a point, but I wouldn't seriously consider going into a test there without a specialist spinner & don't see the other options banging the door down.

It is difficult to even pick 4 seamers + 1 spinner if the spinner is Panesar because the tailender balance is nonexistent unless you pick someone like Broad and then your seam bowling is weakened.

If you must go that way then I'd rather have Swann or similar playing. You just can't have Panesar or any orthodox finger spinner as part of a 4 man attack tho. It has to be 4 seamers or 3 seamers and a top wrist spinner (or a Mendis/Murali type) - and we don't have any of those.

 

[Scaly piscine]

It's more that you blame him for everything. At the moment he should be borderline for the team. But criticising Panesar is all you seem to do, it's getting tiresome.

Poor first-innings batting was the main factor in this defeat, because over the subsequent four days, they've been the better team.

Because people constantly defend him or praise him, if I have to be the anti-hype reality check then so be it. He bowls 7 overs in the first innings while the others are slogging their guts out, then when he gets one of the few occasions where he's a factor he fails.

 

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

If the next test wasn't at The Oval I might think you have a point, but I wouldn't seriously consider going into a test there without a specialist spinner & don't see the other options banging the door down.

Salisbury has two 5-fors this summer. That's 1 more than Monty.

 

[steds]

Denly can't buy a run (last innings excepted), Horton is an opener & don't see Shah as a test 3 (nor Bell if Owais moves into 5 or 6). Hobson's choice.

IIRC (not entirely reliable after drinking 5 pints, 3 shots of Jagermeister and a whisky, but I think decent enough), Horton was blooded at 6 by Lancs and moved up when he scored runs. Nothing stopping England doing the same.

 

[Uppercut]

Because people constantly defend him or praise him, if I have to be the anti-hype reality check then so be it. He bowls 7 overs in the first innings while the others are slogging their guts out, then when he gets one of the few occasions where he's a factor he fails.

Oh, you've sold me, i no longer think he's worth his place in the team at the moment after watching him bowl today.

 

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

Oh, you've sold me, i no longer think he's worth his place in the team at the moment after watching him bowl today.

But Panesar has bowled worse than he did today.

 

[Uppercut]

But Panesar has bowled worse than he did today.

I know. Failing on this pitch was the straw that broke the camel's back for me. The whole point of having him in the team is for those situations- he offers nothing to the team at any other stage in the match. So he simply HAS to deliver.

 

[Lillian Thomson]

When you've been bowled out twice with barely three days of the match gone your spinner not turning the ball square on a fourth day pitch is not your main problem.

 

[fredfertang]

Vaughan appeared disinterested by the end - what odds on his falling on his sword brfore The Oval?

 

[Uppercut]

When you've been bowled out twice with barely three days of the match gone your spinner not turning the ball square on a fourth day pitch is not your main problem.

True but the faults of others can't excuse the faults of Panesar. He no longer has the right to be an automatic pick on pitches that don't suit him.

 

[cover drive man]

Vaughan appeared disinterested by the end - what odds on his falling on his sword brfore The Oval?

 

[BoyBrumby]

It is difficult to even pick 4 seamers + 1 spinner if the spinner is Panesar because the tailender balance is nonexistent unless you pick someone like Broad and then your seam bowling is weakened.

If you must go that way then I'd rather have Swann or similar playing. You just can't have Panesar or any orthodox finger spinner as part of a 4 man attack tho. It has to be 4 seamers or 3 seamers and a top wrist spinner (or a Mendis/Murali type) - and we don't have any of those.

If we're going to play a 5-man attack we'd have to drop a batsman. I can't see Vaughan getting the arse &, after Colly's inspired face-saver, none of the others really quite deserve to be ejected.

Even if we did drop (say) Bell for one twattish dismissal too many we'd need to bolster up the lower order, which leads us to Prior & that way madness lies, obv.

Patel for Bell & bring in a fourth seamer for Monty, maybe? I'd prefer a more solid spinning option than a bloke with 30-ish FC wickets in total, but desperate times & all that...

 

[zaremba]

Pretty much the best available team played. They set SA 280 to win and had them 93-4. This doesn't suggest to me that anything is seriously wrong with the England team. Credit should go to South Africa for pulling off a brilliant win. Talk of wholesale changes to the England team is both unrealistic and unnecessary.

 

[Napier16]

Collingwood should still absolutely be dropped.

Of course if they keep on playing him regardless of how long he's poor for then eventually he'll get a lucky ton. It doesn't suddenly make him any good.

Vaughan should also go, but of course won't. He's rapidly becoming a bit of a joke in all honesty.

On the bowling front, can't really think of any realistic changes. Maybe it's time for England fans to accept this is their best side and they just aren't good enough.

 

[GIMH]

Not read through the thread yet, but when we got them 5 down I thought we were going to do it. The body language for the last 20 runs or so was all wrong. Even with just 20 to go, you're still in with a chance, however small, as a piece of magic gets you into the tail, but the players had given up the fight by then.

As has probably been said, rather than blaming Pietersen for getting out when he did in the 2nd, you have to point fingers at the pathetic effort in the 1st dig. The sides were pretty even from there on in, and really the efforts of Flintoff & Collingwood deserved better, the rest of the side need to take a look in the mirror.

 

[GIMH]

Since and including the winter tour of SL, Pietersen has played 12 tests (21 innings) and only had 4 subsantial knocks(3 100s and a recently compiled 94). If thats particularly good then Im pinnochio. If I have to wait 4 tests for every substantial Pietersen contribution, I think Im justified in hoping he doesnt throw it away on 94 without getting a big one.

You are justified in hoping he doesn't throw it away, all I'm saying is that record over the last year is by no means abysmal even though. he hasn't played as well as previously. The fact that Pietersen's slump is an average in the 40s highlights why he is one undroppable player that we do have.

 

[Napier16]

really the efforts of Flintoff & Collingwood deserved better, the rest of the side need to take a look in the mirror.

Even though he was already given a life you actually think Collingwood deserved yet more?

I know he's one of the world's luckiest players, but I think even that's pushing it. The one reprieve was more than enough. (didn't see how many he got yesterday if any, to add to it)

 

[GIMH]

Collingwood should still absolutely be dropped.

Of course if they keep on playing him regardless of how long he's poor for then eventually he'll get a lucky ton. It doesn't suddenly make him any good.

Vaughan should also go, but of course won't. He's rapidly becoming a bit of a joke in all honesty.

On the bowling front, can't really think of any realistic changes. Maybe it's time for England fans to accept this is their best side and they just aren't good enough.

Well even when I was suggesting Colly was gone I did say I would be much more comfortable having him in the side in India. If yesterday's innings represents a return to form then I actually don't think there is a player I'd rather have for the fight we are going to have on our hands over there.