Celebrating Sir Garry Sobers - The Bowler

[Lillian Thomson]

Well,all I have been arguing is that Sobers was a mediocre bowler & not good enough to get a chance to bowl in alltime XI & therefore shoulkd not be preferreed over Imran & Miller.

It's really not a difficult concept. This thread is a "celebration" of Sobers the bowler. If you don't think he's worth celebrating don't spoil the thread by posting in it as there are plenty of opportunities to express counter opinions elsewhere.

 

[SJS]

It's really not a difficult concept. This thread is a "celebration" of Sobers the bowler. If you don't think he's worth celebrating don't spoil the thread by posting in it as there are plenty of opportunities to express counter opinions elsewhere.

Maybe we understand celebrating a birthday party and then someone coming and spoiling the celebration by saying the birthday boy was a louse anyway so where is the question of wishing him a "happy" birthday

 

[Ikki]

Secondly I am not selectively posting stuff to prove that Sobers was a 'fine,good or great' bowler

Er? Yes you are. Your intention is to celebrate Sobers' - which is fair enough - but you are being selective in what you post to prove that.

 

[zaremba]

This thread has sadly descended from the sub. to the rid.

 

[fredfertang]

The tenacity of the participants is impressive in its way but the case management on these X vs Y threads is pisspoor in my view - how about drafting some standard directions Mr Z ?

 

[Lillian Thomson]

The tenacity of the participants is impressive in its way but the case management on these X vs Y threads is pisspoor in my view - how about drafting some standard directions Mr Z ?

This isn't an x versus y thread though. It's a celebration of Sobers achievements as a bowler which has been ruined.

 

[fredfertang]

This isn't an x versus y thread though. It's a celebration of Sobers achievements as a bowler which has been ruined.

Now you mention it indeed its not - I hadn't noticed much difference though

 

[SJS]

This isn't an x versus y thread though. It's a celebration of Sobers achievements as a bowler which has been ruined.

Now that you mention it, I realise I have stopped delving further in my library looking for articles/pieces on his bowling.

At least once a month, if not more frequently, I am reminded of the good old days

 

[Sanz]

Now that you mention it, I realise I have stopped delving further in my library looking for articles/pieces on his bowling.

At least once a month, if not more frequently, I am reminded of the good old days

I am really disappointed to hear that. In any case I hope you continue to dig into your library and make this thread even more informative. I am going to read more and more about Sobers - The Bowler and continue to post as and when I discover interesting stuff.

 

[Sanz]

West Indies in England, 1963 - Almanac


"....Worrell had an almost perfect side to lead. It was ideally blended with three really quick bowlers in Hall, Griffith and King, a proved off-spinner in Gibbs, the evergreen Valentine of the victorious 1950 combination to provide left-arm slows, plus Rodriguez, the Trinidad captain and leg-spinner. To these bowlers could be added the all-rounders, notably Worrell himself and Sobers. At times, Sobers bowled with the new ball with the hostility of Alan Davidson and at others with the skill and guile of Fleetwood Smith or Tribe..........

......Sobers was the strong man of the party. He missed only six first-class engagements including the two against Oxford and Cambridge, and in almost every game he played he contributed some outstanding performance. He left his imprint on every field he played, taking wickets at a vital time, making runs quickly when necessary and swallowing up 29 catches, mostly in the slips. His form in the last month of the tour qualified him as the outstanding performer and all-rounder in present-day cricket......"

 

[SJS]

Ted Dexter writing early in Sobers's career (1962)

Garfield Sobers, in my opinion, the greatest cricketer the world has ever produced, is an unusual type of bowler to play against. He can bowl fast, medium pace cutters, swing, and every known form of left arm slow bowling. I first played him at Cambridge where he bowled left arm orthodox spin, turning from leg. He bowled rather too fast to turn the ball much, but was very accurate and had a very well disguised quicker ball.

In the West Indies he had discarded the orthodox for wrist spin bowling 'chinamen' and googlies, left arm over the wicket.

It was a blessing first to play him at Barbados where getting the ball to turn is a near impossibility. Whether 'Chinaman' or googly, the ball is sure to carry straight on after it hits the ground and no great technique is required - just the ability to pick the length of the ball. hit the bad ones and either play defensively or allow the good ones to go by.

The danger ball was not always the good length ball that was going to hit the wicket. Garfield got quite a few batsmen out trying to pull the ball dropped short on the leg stump. A correct enough shot to the Chinaman, but the googly would occasionally bounce higher and turn from leg. The intended pull would get the ball higher on the outer edge of the bat and 'caught at the wicket' or 'caught and bowled' would be written in the score book. Garfield has since had considerable success against Australia, bowling his faster stuff, and it will be interesting to see which style he uses in England in 1963.​

 

[SJS]

It is very interesting to break up Sir Garfield's bowling figures over countries and over different period in his career.

[B]Seasons	Country	Wkts	Avg	Str Rate[/B]
6	AUS	221	29.1	65.2
[B]17	ENG	548	25.2	61.8
4	IND	54	25.3	55.2[/B]
2	NZL	13	43.0	121.8
2	PAK	4	47.0	149.3
18	WIN	203	32.1	85.0

Clearly Sobers enjoyed bowling in India and England the most. No doubt his finger spin and lateral movement found the conditions favourable.

West Indian wickets were tough work for bowlers in those days of very big scores and it shows.

In Australia, he seems to have discovered, once he started playing domestic cricket regularly, that his fasterstuff (in his younger days) was very efective, hence CLR James's wrtiting on the subject and Sobers's performance in Australia in three consecutive seasons of 1961-62, 62-63 and 63-64.

Here are the bowling figures of the leading bowlers in Australia in those three seasons.

[B]BOWLER's name	TYPE	Wickets	5 fors	Avg	Str Rate[/B]
Davidson	LAMP	86	5	17.3	52.1
[B]Gary Sobers	MISC	137	8	26.0	58.8[/B]
Richie Benaud	RALS	128	7	26.0	75.5
Wesley Hall	RAF	76	4	26.3	48.3
Neil Hawke	RAF	103	5	30.5	71.0
David Sincock	LACM	59	3	34.9	55.1
McKenzie	RAF	108	3	36.7	79.6

Pretty impressive company there.

Sobers did not go back to play first class cricket in Australia till 1968-69 - 5 years later. This time as a member of the touring West Indies side. He was in his 33rd year and not as nippy as before and of course, with Hall and Griffith in the side, he did not get to use the new ball.

When he did get the new ball against South Australia, he struck them with five wickets including the young Greg Chappell. His bowling partner Griffith went wicketless as only 3 other wickets fell to bowlers.

Hall wasn't fit for the first test so Sobers took the new ball and got Redpath in his first over in the first innings. In the secomnd innings, he got Raedpath again and Lawry and Stackpole and Jarman and a couple of tailenders to end up with 6 for 71. It won the match for his side.

West Indies lost the next Test by an innings with two poor batting performances. This time they were without the services of BOTH their fast bowlers (Hall and Griffith) Auastralia piled up a huge 510. Sobers was leading wicket taker for his side with four for 97 in 33 eight ball overs.

Hall and Edwards opened the bowling in the next Test, Sobers went wicketless and Widies lost by 10 wickets.

Griffith and Edwards opened against Tasmania in both innings, Sobers bowled only in the first and got 3 wickets.

He got seven more wickets in the next two Tests as west Indies lost the fifth with another huge margin, this time 382 runs.

West Indies were walloped in the series.

- Gibbs was leading wicket taker with 24 wickets at 38.5 each !!
- Hall took 8 wkts at 40.6 each.
- Griffith 8 at 53.8 each.
- Edwards 3 at 92.3 each.
- Holford 4 at 72.5 each.
- Sobers took 18 at 40.7 each​

Sobers was mostly used like a stock bowler. He bowled than more than any other two bowlers in the side (barring Gibbs). This was a West Indian side in trouble with bowling resources and the skipper was having to bowl himself everytime the oposition batsmen got stuck into his attack which was most of the time.

In all first class matches on this tour, here is how the leading West Indies bowlers fared.

• Gibbs : 36 at 36.4 each
• Hall : 30 at 32.3 each
• Griffith : 20 at 39.8 each
• Holford : 17 at 58.8 eqch
• Sobers : 36 at 31.1 each

By the way, he also topped the batting in both Tests and first class matches. He was also leading catcher in the side.

Sobers did not go back to Australia again except to play for the World XI in 1970-71.

It is also interesting to see what happened to Sobers's bowling along the two decades of his career.

The Fifties (1954 to 1960)
He seems to have started as an orthodox spinner, and then gone on to bowl every conceivable kind of delivery. He was a superb left arm orthodox finger spinner but that type of bowler is severely handicapped on unhelpful surfaces. Wrist spinners can turn the ball on most surfaces but finger spinners need the ball to grip and need drying or crumbling/dusty surfaces. This wasn't always available and the amazingly versatile Sobers found that wrist spin was much more exciting and pro-active. He was not faced by batsmen playing the waiting game as happened with finger spin. Here he was able to turn the ball much more and inspite of the relative loss of control of wrist spin in comparison to finger spin (in fact, largely because of this factor) he had batsmen playing more aggressively. Add to that a well disguised wrong one and it was a very exciting mix so the young Sobers bowled it pretty often.

Then, as most bowlers with classically correct actions find, he discovered he could swing the ball appreciably if he did not rotate it at delivery and with his lissom physique, he could bowl a lively pace even with a short run up. This made him start bowling the faster stuff and again, as with anything he tried, with considerable success.

The problem this young but super talented youngster was now faced with was what to bowl. He was too young and took the most obvious option that appealed to him - bowl everything. Now this and then that and then the other. The fact that he did it well made his captains go along with him, particularly in sides which were predominantly strong batting sides.

This would have been fine and his prodigious talent could have managed even this expanding 'portfolio' of skills, if he had just harnessed it to the extent of bowling the stuff that was most suitable to a particular surface or particular ambient and ground conditions. He did not always do that. Its quite one thing for a medium pacer to come on with the old ball and bowl finger spin but quite another to bowl finger spin and wrist spin and medium pace and some really fiery stuff. Some times the very conditions would require reducing the variety for a particular situation.

For example the seam up and the finger spin would be perfect for England while the fast stuff and the wrist spin would be better for Australia.

It wasn't till he was a bit older and wiser that Sobers manage to do this. Till then he mixed them up a bit too much and ended the fifties with not so flattering figures.

- In first class (1952-53 to 1959-60) : 366 wickets at 28 each
- In Test Matches (1954-1960) : 46 wkts at 47.3 each ​

But he was still a young man at the start of the sixties. He was still in his twenties, already a world beater as a batsman and a very fine bowler. Now started his best decade as a bowler.

In the Sixties

- FC Cricket (1960-61 to 1969) : 515 wkts at 26.4 each (more importantly)
- Test Matches : (1961-1968) : 125 wkts ay 27.9 each​

By now he was approaching 35 and coming to the end of his career. While he could still score big hundreds when he got going, the shelf life of a bowler is shorter and it shows in his figures.

In the Seventies

- FC Cricket : (1969-70 to 1974) : 162 wickets at 31.33
- Test matches : (1969-1974) : 67 wkts at 36.9​

Clearly he had bowled far longer than he should have. But the sides he led were still weak and depending too heavily upon their champion skipper to bring out the magic wand but the bag was running out of tricks.

The impact on his strike rate in Test matches was equally dramatic. Here they are for the same periods

• 50's : 115.9 balls/wkt
• 60's : 72.9 balls/wkt
• 70's : 96.7 balls/wkt

He did not have the luxury that Imran had in the latter part of that great's career, to focus on batting and leave the bowling to the upcoming Waqar and Wasim.

 

[BhupinderSingh]

It is very interesting to break up Sir Garfield's bowling figures over countries and over different period in his career.

[B]Seasons	Country	Wkts	Avg	Str Rate[/B]
6	AUS	221	29.1	65.2
[B]17	ENG	548	25.2	61.8
4	IND	54	25.3	55.2[/B]
2	NZL	13	43.0	121.8
2	PAK	4	47.0	149.3
18	WIN	203	32.1	85.0

Clearly Sobers enjoyed bowling in India and England the most. No doubt his finger spin and lateral movement found the conditions favourable.

West Indian wickets were tough work for bowlers in those days of very big scores and it shows.

In Australia, he seems to have discovered, once he started playing domestic cricket regularly, that his fasterstuff (in his younger days) was very efective, hence CLR James's wrtiting on the subject and Sobers's performance in Australia in three consecutive seasons of 1961-62, 62-63 and 63-64.

Here are the bowling figures of the leading bowlers in Australia in those three seasons.

[B]BOWLER's name	TYPE	Wickets	5 fors	Avg	Str Rate[/B]
Davidson	LAMP	86	5	17.3	52.1
[B]Gary Sobers	MISC	137	8	26.0	58.8[/B]
Richie Benaud	RALS	128	7	26.0	75.5
Wesley Hall	RAF	76	4	26.3	48.3
Neil Hawke	RAF	103	5	30.5	71.0
David Sincock	LACM	59	3	34.9	55.1
McKenzie	RAF	108	3	36.7	79.6

Pretty impressive company there.

Sobers did not go back to play first class cricket in Australia till 1968-69 - 5 years later. This time as a member of the touring West Indies side. He was in his 33rd year and not as nippy as before and of course, with Hall and Griffith in the side, he did not get to use the new ball.

When he did get the new ball against South Australia, he struck them with five wickets including the young Greg Chappell. His bowling partner Griffith went wicketless as only 3 other wickets fell to bowlers.

Hall wasn't fit for the first test so Sobers took the new ball and got Redpath in his first over in the first innings. In the secomnd innings, he got Raedpath again and Lawry and Stackpole and Jarman and a couple of tailenders to end up with 6 for 71. It won the match for his side.

West Indies lost the next Test by an innings with two poor batting performances. This time they were without the services of BOTH their fast bowlers (Hall and Griffith) Auastralia piled up a huge 510. Sobers was leading wicket taker for his side with four for 97 in 33 eight ball overs.

Hall and Edwards opened the bowling in the next Test, Sobers went wicketless and Widies lost by 10 wickets.

Griffith and Edwards opened against Tasmania in both innings, Sobers bowled only in the first and got 3 wickets.

He got seven more wickets in the next two Tests as west Indies lost the fifth with another huge margin, this time 382 runs.

West Indies were walloped in the series.

- Gibbs was leading wicket taker with 24 wickets at 38.5 each !!
- Hall took 8 wkts at 40.6 each.
- Griffith 8 at 53.8 each.
- Edwards 3 at 92.3 each.
- Holford 4 at 72.5 each.
- Sobers took 18 at 40.7 each​

Sobers was mostly used like a stock bowler. He bowled than more than any other two bowlers in the side (barring Gibbs). This was a West Indian side in trouble with bowling resources and the skipper was having to bowl himself everytime the oposition batsmen got stuck into his attack which was most of the time.

In all first class matches on this tour, here is how the leading West Indies bowlers fared.

• Gibbs : 36 at 36.4 each
• Hall : 30 at 32.3 each
• Griffith : 20 at 39.8 each
• Holford : 17 at 58.8 eqch
• Sobers : 36 at 31.1 each

By the way, he also topped the batting in both Tests and first class matches. He was also leading catcher in the side.

Sobers did not go back to Australia again except to play for the World XI in 1970-71.

It is also interesting to see what happened to Sobers's bowling along the two decades of his career.

The Fifties (1954 to 1960)
He seems to have started as an orthodox spinner, and then gone on to bowl every conceivable kind of delivery. He was a superb left arm orthodox finger spinner but that type of bowler is severely handicapped on unhelpful surfaces. Wrist spinners can turn the ball on most surfaces but finger spinners need the ball to grip and need drying or crumbling/dusty surfaces. This wasn't always available and the amazingly versatile Sobers found that wrist spin was much more exciting and pro-active. He was not faced by batsmen playing the waiting game as happened with finger spin. Here he was able to turn the ball much more and inspite of the relative loss of control of wrist spin in comparison to finger spin (in fact, largely because of this factor) he had batsmen playing more aggressively. Add to that a well disguised wrong one and it was a very exciting mix so the young Sobers bowled it pretty often.

Then, as most bowlers with classically correct actions find, he discovered he could swing the ball appreciably if he did not rotate it at delivery and with his lissom physique, he could bowl a lively pace even with a short run up. This made him start bowling the faster stuff and again, as with anything he tried, with considerable success.

The problem this young but super talented youngster was now faced with was what to bowl. He was too young and took the most obvious option that appealed to him - bowl everything. Now this and then that and then the other. The fact that he did it well made his captains go along with him, particularly in sides which were predominantly strong batting sides.

This would have been fine and his prodigious talent could have managed even this expanding 'portfolio' of skills, if he had just harnessed it to the extent of bowling the stuff that was most suitable to a particular surface or particular ambient and ground conditions. He did not always do that. Its quite one thing for a medium pacer to come on with the old ball and bowl finger spin but quite another to bowl finger spin and wrist spin and medium pace and some really fiery stuff. Some times the very conditions would require reducing the variety for a particular situation.

For example the seam up and the finger spin would be perfect for England while the fast stuff and the wrist spin would be better for Australia.

It wasn't till he was a bit older and wiser that Sobers manage to do this. Till then he mixed them up a bit too much and ended the fifties with not so flattering figures.

- In first class (1952-53 to 1959-60) : 366 wickets at 28 each
- In Test Matches (1954-1960) : 46 wkts at 47.3 each ​

But he was still a young man at the start of the sixties. He was still in his twenties, already a world beater as a batsman and a very fine bowler. Now started his best decade as a bowler.

In the Sixties

- FC Cricket (1960-61 to 1969) : 515 wkts at 26.4 each (more importantly)
- Test Matches : (1961-1968) : 125 wkts ay 27.9 each​

By now he was approaching 35 and coming to the end of his career. While he could still score big hundreds when he got going, the shelf life of a bowler is shorter and it shows in his figures.

In the Seventies

- FC Cricket : (1969-70 to 1974) : 162 wickets at 31.33
- Test matches : (1969-1974) : 67 wkts at 36.9​

Clearly he had bowled far longer than he should have. But the sides he led were still weak and depending too heavily upon their champion skipper to bring out the magic wand but the bag was running out of tricks.

The impact on his strike rate in Test matches was equally dramatic. Here they are for the same periods

• 50's : 115.9 balls/wkt
• 60's : 72.9 balls/wkt
• 70's : 96.7 balls/wkt

He did not have the luxury that Imran had in the latter part of that great's career, to focus on batting and leave the bowling to the upcoming Waqar and Wasim.

Imran was almost 35 years of age when Wasim became a regular member of the team and almost 37 years of age when Waqar made his debut.So,Imran's career as a bowler was almost over by the time they came along.

First,this thread was meant to celebrate Sobers-the bowler & not to discuss anything else but now these pro Sobers's fan are themselves posting about other players.So,I don't ttink it would be wrong now to argue whether Sobers wasa good bowler or not.

 

[BhupinderSingh]

you can't take 235 test wickets without being good with the ball

You can........if you play close to 100 tests and bowl hell lot of overs every match.

 

[ret]

You can........if you play close to 100 tests and bowl hell lot of overs every match.[

but then why someone who is not good made to bowl a hell lot of overs every match

 

[weldone]

but then why someone who is not good made to bowl a hell lot of overs every match

By this logic, Ashley Giles is an amazing bowler

 

[ret]

By this logic, Ashley Giles is an amazing bowler

I m saying that someone who has 235 test wickets has to be a good bowler .... he said that Sobers got 235 wkts because he got to bowl a hell lot of overs and not because he is good .... I m then saying that why would someone who is not good get to bowl a hell lot of overs [and that too over a period of 90 tests]

my point is centered someone picking 235 wkts being good .... so where does Giles being an amazing bowler come into this? .... or are you trying to claim that Sobers was not a good bowler

 

[BhupinderSingh]

but then why someone who is not good made to bowl a hell lot of overs every match

Because he's captain of the side and overrates himself.

 

[ret]

Because he's captain of the side and overrates himslef.

and picks up 235 wkts in the process

 

[weldone]

I m saying that someone who has 235 test wickets has to be a good bowler ....

By good if you mean of the standard of Kallis, then I fully agree with you...