***Official*** South Africa in England

[SpaceMonkey]

Realised today that I am on a day's holiday next Friday meaning I have the final three days of the Test off work

Lets hope England dont lose in 2 days

 

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

Don't know about that at all. I'd say Lee's the better bowler, but Steyn over the past year has been unstoppable, S/R of 31, average of 17 in 2007+08. Statistics aside too, he's just looked unbelievably awesome at times. Steyn's outswinger on middle moving to off is probably the most unplayable ball in world cricket, Lee has no real equivalent. While i would predict Steyn to take a small downturn over the next year, i expect Lee to carry on improving, because he's the more capable bowler. But to say Lee has bowled better than Steyn over the year just past i don't believe is true.

My judgment is based on the quality of bowling between the wickets and the quality of the wickets themselves. Statistics don't tell the whole story here.

 

[aussie tragic]

Here's my prediction for a 13-man squad

1. Strauss
2. Cook
3. Vaughan
4. Pietersen
5. Bell
6. Bopara
7. Flintoff
8. Ambrose
9. Sidebottom
10. Anderson
11. Panesar

12. Harmison
13. Pattinson (just to save face)

If Bopara can replicate his great FC form this year (11G, 930 runs @ 54.70 and 20 wkts @ 29.90) then it adds the missing balance (as I can't see them bringing Collingwood straight back)

 

[SpaceMonkey]

Well some mumblings going around that Jones was rested for the Worcestershire game cos England gave us a nod to do it. Highly doubt it though. If the selectors went for Jones it would mean they'd drop Broad which i dont see happening.

 

[The Masterplan]

"England need pace. They need somebody to bowl 90mph as you have seen with South Africa and I think we need that injection."

And Cork believes his Lancashire team-mate Mahmood is not far away from a recall to the national side.

Mahmood hasn't played for England since last year's World Cup and has not played a Test since the disastrous 2006-7 Ashes tour. But he has been in impressive form for Lancashire this season and is bowling consistently and at around 90 mph.

"He has learnt his trade," said Cork. "He has gone away from the international scene after quite a turbulent time, and has worked hard.

"Bowling is a trade you can't expect to just turn up and bowl quick and take wickets, he has learnt how to bowl consistently good lines and good lengths and I think he is in the mix.''

Corky knows what he's talking about...

 

[zaremba]

Here's my prediction for a 13-man squad

1. Strauss
2. Cook
3. Vaughan
4. Pietersen
5. Bell
6. Bopara
7. Flintoff
8. Ambrose
9. Sidebottom
10. Anderson
11. Panesar

12. Harmison
13. Pattinson (just to save face)

If Bopara can replicate his great FC form this year (11G, 930 runs @ 54.70 and 20 wkts @ 29.90) then it adds the missing balance (as I can't see them bringing Collingwood straight back)

They won't drop Broad. Arguably they should, but they won't.

 

[zaremba]

"England need pace. They need somebody to bowl 90mph as you have seen with South Africa and I think we need that injection."

Flintoff can bowl at 90mph. Anderson is capable of it too. Broad hits 88mph. Just because Sajid Bloody Mahmood can fling it down in the general direction of the other end of the pitch at the same sort of speed does not make him the missing piece of the jigsaw.

 

[tooextracool]

Some commentators (possibly Botham) went on and on about selection. I wonder what selection that was. Then again, what else would you find wrong?

• Flintoff not ready?
• Broad struggling to get a wicket?
• Feeble first-innings batting?
• Collingwood's absence?

Pattinson's selection was a very very big gamble that didnt pay off. I can accept that they took a punt on a guy with little to no FC experience, based purely on the little they had seen off him, and it didnt pay off. Afterall Wasim was picked with no FC experience whatsoever. I dont necessarily agree with his selection, but even now I would have picked Pattinson over Tremlett to bowl at Headingly.
The big mistake that they made was the absolutely idiotic idea of going it with 5 specialist batsmen at Headingly. Im sorry, but when your top and middle order is struggling to score runs, you dont drop one of them and replace them with a bowler. If Headingly was supposed to be a seamers paradise (which was what was expected at the start of the test) then did they really need 4 seam bowlers? I mean if 3 dont do the job its highly unlikely that the 4th will do so either if the ball is swinging around corners.

 

[tooextracool]

No it wasn't.. England were outperformed in pretty much every department, and although Pattinson didn't cover himself in glory, he by no means bowled poorly..

Actually in the field, if anything, England fielded better than SA.

 

[Richard]

They won't drop Broad. Arguably they should, but they won't.

I'd not want to say they will or won't - reckon it's about 50:50 personally.

but how can you justify dropping someone who is performing well...
thats how I look at it, at this point...

Broad isn't performing though. He's been picked as a bowler, and he's not taking many wickets.

If you place stall on the fact he's scored runs, then pick him as a batsman. But I think that would struggle to be justified too.

 

[Richard]

He's out of the 3rd Test.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/cricket/other_international/south_africa/7526071.stm

I guess Mr Nel will be playing.

Excellent, hope he takes a bagful against Bangladesh A to firm that up then gets another bag in the Test.

 

[tooextracool]

In good conscience, I could not call Broad an allrounder at Test level given he has never scored a FC century.

Tbf to him, batting at number 8 or 9 as he probably does at the FC level is not exactly the most conducive environment for him to be scoring centuries. At the moment, I dont rate him as being any better a batter than Daniel Vettori, but perhaps if he worked on his batting and was able to bat up the order for his domestic side he could easily change that.

 

[tooextracool]

Yep. Like I said earlier in the thread, on current evidence Broad is a batting allrounder and Flintoff a bowling allrounder.

On current form hes a batsman. Im struggling to think of too many bowlers going around at the moment who are averaging 44 in test match cricket. Even the likes of Andrew Symonds and various other part time bowlers have better records than that.

 

[zaremba]

I'd not want to say they will or won't - reckon it's about 50:50 personally.

Well I'm always happy to be proved wrong but he will be in the squad and probably the team. He's the blue-eyed boy, he's been heroic with the bat and the punditocracy love him to bits. After Pattinsongate the selectors wouldn't risk the backlash of dropping him. Even though his bowling isn't (presently) up to it.

 

[tooextracool]

He's out of the 3rd Test.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/cricket/other_international/south_africa/7526071.stm

I guess Mr Nel will be playing.

That is a big blow. Porbably evened things out in the series for mine. If England go on to lose another game from here, they have some serious problems.

 

[tooextracool]

Well some mumblings going around that Jones was rested for the Worcestershire game cos England gave us a nod to do it. Highly doubt it though. If the selectors went for Jones it would mean they'd drop Broad which i dont see happening.

Cricinfo makes it sound like Harmison is on the verge of a recall. Guess everyone is just about in the dark as much as we were last time around regarding the selections.

 

[tooextracool]

Flintoff can bowl at 90mph. Anderson is capable of it too. Broad hits 88mph. Just because Sajid Bloody Mahmood can fling it down in the general direction of the other end of the pitch at the same sort of speed does not make him the missing piece of the jigsaw.

Bowling is hardly about 'can hit 90mph'. Ok, so Anderson has bowled a few balls at 90 mph and Collingwood has bowled a few at 85mph and RP Singh has bowled a couple at 90mph. At the end of the day, if you dont bowl consistently at a particular pace than you shouldnt be classified as such. Anderson spent the large part of the Headingly test bowling barely above 80mph, and the same with Flintoff. Average speeds are more important than top speeds and I would not be surprised if Saj and Harmison have a higher average speed than Anderson and Flintoff.

 

[zaremba]

Bowling is hardly about 'can hit 90mph'. Ok, so Anderson has bowled a few balls at 90 mph and Collingwood has bowled a few at 85mph and RP Singh has bowled a couple at 90mph. At the end of the day, if you dont bowl consistently at a particular pace than you shouldnt be classified as such. Anderson spent the large part of the Headingly test bowling barely above 80mph, and the same with Flintoff. Average speeds are more important than top speeds and I would not be surprised if Saj and Harmison have a higher average speed than Anderson and Flintoff.

I disagree with most of this.

I've seen Anderson, this season, bowl an entire over where each delivery was at 90mph and above.

And I don't agree that consistent pace is necessarily the key - if you're always bowling at top speed you lose the ability to change your pace up, and to slip in the quicker one.

Besides the point is that Sajid Mahmood, even if he is 1 or 2 mph quicker than Jimmy Anderson, is not good enough to be a Test bowler. Look at his career record - 4 five wicket hauls in 63 first class games. He lacks accuracy, lacks reliability, lacks lateral movement and lacks skill. Even though he's tall, his low arm means that he gets less bounce than he should as well.

If Sajid Mahmood is the answer, we are asking the wrong question.

 

[tooextracool]

I disagree with most of this.

I've seen Anderson, this season, bowl an entire over where each delivery was at 90mph and above.

And I don't agree that consistent pace is necessarily the key - if you're always bowling at top speed you lose the ability to change your pace up, and to slip in the quicker one.

Besides the point is that Sajid Mahmood, even if he is 1 or 2 mph quicker than Jimmy Anderson, is not good enough to be a Test bowler. Look at his career record - 4 five wicket hauls in 63 first class games. He lacks accuracy, lacks reliability, lacks lateral movement and lacks skill. Even though he's tall, his low arm means that he gets less bounce than he should as well.

If Sajid Mahmood is the answer, we are asking the wrong question.

I think you may have misunderstood my post a little bit. I am not for one second suggesting that Sajid Mahmood is good enough to play international cricket and I rate him as a bowler just as highly as you do. What I was trying to indicate with my post is that certain bowlers like Harmison are consistently quicker than others like Anderson. I have seen Anderson bowl over 90mph occasionally, but those are few and far between and by and large he bowls at an average pace of around 85 mph ordinarily. Harmison, on the other hand, usually bowls in the high 80s.
However, that is besides the point because Anderson, much like Mahmood bowls with a lower trajectory and his pace off the wicket is consistently slower than someone like Flintoff or Harmison. If you ask batsman who have faced both Flintoff and Anderson who is quicker, I would be very surprised if many of them said Anderson, even thought the speedometer might suggest that they both bowl at similar pace. Nothing wrong with that of course, but there isnt much doubt in my mind that having an attack of Broad, Sidebottom and Anderson simply lacks the pace and venom that is required to bowl sides out on the flatter tracks around the world. As Hussain has often said, some bowlers bowl deliveries that kiss the deck while others hit the deck hard and a good pace bowling unit has a variety of the 2.

 

[tooextracool]

Excellent, hope he takes a bagful against Bangladesh A to firm that up then gets another bag in the Test.

Just curious, who are you supporting this series?