Celebrating Sir Garry Sobers - The Bowler

[Ikki]

Yes,an average of close to 50 after playing 45+ games makes Sobers best bowler ever.Happy?

I've concluded that you are more biased in favour of Sobers than I'm told be in favour of Imran by some as you regard fairly valid statistical evidence simply as 'crap'.
If posting statistical + practical facts & truth makes me a troll,then I'm happy to be a troll.

There is one slight problem. Your statistics are incorrect; therefore neither factual nor truthful. Sobers did not average close to 50 after playing 45+ games. He was averaging about 50 after his 30th test, though.

 

[weldone]

Sobers was a good bowler, as good as you have to be to get 200 test wickets...

That's exactly what I feel about Sobers, the bowler.

 

[Sanz]

Yes,an average of close to 50 after playing 45+ games makes Sobers best bowler ever.Happy?

I've concluded that you are more biased in favour of Sobers than I'm told be in favour of Imran by some as you regard fairly valid statistical evidence simply as 'crap'.
If posting statistical + practical facts & truth makes me a troll,then I'm happy to be a troll.

You have made your point a billion times in various threads. Your opinion is not troll, but your behavior and insistence on getting into every thread and posting the same thing over and over again is very much trollish.

I hope some moderator can put a leash on it or just close the thread. This is a thread for Celebrating Sobers - The Bowler, not insulting him.

 

[Fusion]

You have made your point a billion times in various threads. Your opinion is not troll, but your behavior and insistence on getting into every thread and posting the same thing over and over again is very much trollish.

I hope some moderator can put a leash on it or just close the thread. This is a thread for Celebrating Sobers - The Bowler, not insulting him.

Sanz – I share your view on Sobers. I believe him to be the best all-rounder of all time. I also feel that he was a good bowler, not an all time great, but good enough in the all-rounder category. However, you can’t have a thread about someone and deal only with positives. Kazo and BS, as much as I disagree with their opinions, have a right to express them. I have tremendously enjoyed the articles you and SJS have posted on here. Let Kazo and BS debate the merits of what was written on those articles (or the views of the pro-Sobers crowd).

 

[Sanz]

Sanz – I share your view on Sobers. I believe him to be the best all-rounder of all time. I also feel that he was a good bowler, not an all time great, but good enough in the all-rounder category. However, you can’t have a thread about someone and deal only with positives. Kazo and BS, as much as I disagree with their opinions, have a right to express them. I have tremendously enjoyed the articles you and SJS have posted on here. Let Kazo and BS debate the merits of what was written on those articles (or the views of the pro-Sobers crowd).

I am not averse to discussing Sobers's bowling or discussing the merits/demerits of Sobers the bowler. This thread is exactly supposed to do that. As you can see I didn't object to Athlai's or Manee's comments at all, who raised some very valid question marks. What I object to is continous slapping of Stats (which are often selective) on our faces and then make declarations such as Sobers was 'Crap','Mediocre','Worst Bowler ever' etc.

They are entitled to their opinion, but if Statistics is all they are going to use then I am sorry this thread is not the right place. There is the other thread for that discussion.

If Bhupiner and Co. have anything else other than Statistics to support their claim, they are more than welcome to participate in this debate. This thread is not for glorifying Sobers' bowling nor insulting it. It is for discussing Sobers the bowler not his stats.

Hope that is clear enough.

 

[Richard]

Yes,an average of close to 50 after playing 45+ games makes Sobers best bowler ever.Happy?

It wasn't quite that many.

 

[Fusion]

I am not averse to discussing Sobers's bowling or discussing the merits/demerits of Sobers the bowler. This thread is exactly supposed to do that. As you can see I didn't object to Athlai's or Manee's comments at all, who raised some very valid question marks. What I object to is continous slapping of Stats (which are often selective) on our faces and then make declarations such as Sobers was 'Crap','Mediocre','Worst Bowler ever' etc.

They are entitled to their opinion, but if Statistics is all they are going to use then I am sorry this thread is not the right place. There is the other thread for that discussion.

If Bhupiner and Co. have anything else other than Statistics to support their claim, they are more than welcome to participate in this debate. This thread is not for glorifying Sobers' bowling nor insulting it. It is for discussing Sobers the bowler not his stats.

Hope that is clear enough.

Gotcha. Fair enough.

 

[ret]

Sobers was a fine bowler in later half of his career but for the first hald,he was worst bowler ever(statistical reality) and took just 1 wicket per game which record would be similar to that of batsman who averages 10-12 only.He was a fine in the the later half but worst + fine makes him a mediocre bowler overall.

i don't know why should you be complaining abt Sobers bowling in the first half of his career when you keep blowing Imran's trumpet based on his bowling in the early part of his career and batting in the later part of his career. it's like you want to pick out the best phases of Imran as a bowler [early part] and batsman [later part] to judge him and when it comes to others you complain .... double standards?!!

 

[Richard]

AFAIK, no-one ever blows Imran's trumpet based on much other than the vast majority of his career.

The only parts of Imran's career that need to be excluded to give a more accurate impression of his ability are those first 4 Tests in 1971 and 1974, and then everything from 1989/90 onwards. Even from 1989/90 onwards his batting got better and better.

Imran was good 1976/77-1979/80 and superlative 1980/81-1988/89.

With Sobers the picture is rather more complex - there's more you need to mess around with to find-out how good he was.

 

[BhupinderSingh]

i don't know why should you be complaining abt Sobers bowling in the first half of his career when you keep blowing Imran's trumpet based on his bowling in the early part of his career and batting in the later part of his career. it's like you want to pick out the best phases of Imran as a bowler [early part] and batsman [later part] to judge him and when it comes to others you complain .... double standards?!!

You need to go more through my earlier posts to know properly what I argue & if that is double standards or not.Check Imran's stats for last 10 years(1982-1992) of his career & they are average of 51& 19 in batting & bowling respectively,the feat I don't see anyone equaling in many decades to come.If you consider it for years 1978/79 -1989,the peak is still longerr & better than anyone else in history.
And his peak is the one of the most imortant reasons why I rate him better than Miller.Otherwise,there isn't much between them,both statistical replicas of each other with one being better bowler and other the batsman.

 

[BhupinderSingh]

Gotcha. Fair enough.

No,that is not fair enough Fusion.If I & Kazo are just using stats to prove Sobers was a mediocre bowler then pro-Sobers community is also just using articles of different journalists to prove Sobers was a fine or good bowler.They have the right to keep us away from discussion only if they use anything beside those articles and opinions that Sobers was a good enough to get a chance to bowl in an alltime XI.Otherwise,they have absolutely no right to ask us to keep away from these threads.

 

[Lillian Thomson]

No,that is not fair enough Fusion.If I & Kazo are just using stats to prove Sobers was a mediocre bowler then pro-Sobers community is also just using articles of different journalists to prove Sobers was a fine or good bowler.They have the right to keep us away from discussion only if they use anything beside those articles and opinions Sobers was a good enough to get a chance to bowl in an alltime XI.Otherwise,they have absolutely no right to ask us to keep away from these threads.

The point is that this a "celebration" of Sobers. If you want to say he's crap there's plenty of other threads to do it in.

 

[BhupinderSingh]

You have made your point a billion times in various threads. Your opinion is not troll, but your behavior and insistence on getting into every thread and posting the same thing over and over again is very much trollish.

I hope some moderator can put a leash on it or just close the thread. This is a thread for Celebrating Sobers - The Bowler, not insulting him.

One of us uses opinions of different people and other statistics,aren't both of us depicting trollish behaviour then?

 

[BhupinderSingh]

The point is that this a "celebration" of Sobers. If you want to say he's crap there's plenty of other threads to do it in.

Provide link to my post in this thread where I said Sobers was a crap bowler overall.

 

[BhupinderSingh]

There is one slight problem. Your statistics are incorrect; therefore neither factual nor truthful. Sobers did not average close to 50 after playing 45+ games. He was averaging about 50 after his 30th test, though.

Yes,thats my mistake and he was like that till 37th match of his career which is still 2/5 of his career & never on earth would such a player get chance to bowl regularly in an alltime XI.

 

[Lillian Thomson]

Provide link to my post in this thread where I said Sobers was a crap bowler overall.

Provide a link which shows a post which is a "celebration" and not based mainly on negativity.

 

[BhupinderSingh]

Provide a link which shows a post which is a "celebration" and not based mainly on negativity.

That doesn't make sense because you made a claim and need to provide evidence for that.I just posted on this thread because I felt many things posted on this thread pro-Sobers group was wrong.If its annoying too many people,I would stay away from this thread in future or at-least not argue anything about Sobers bowling in this particular thread.

 

[Lillian Thomson]

That doesn't make sense because you made a claim and need to provide evidence for that.I just posted on this thread because I felt many things posted on this thread pro-Sobers group was wrong.If its annoying too many people,I would stay away from this thread in future or at-least not argue anything about Sobers bowling in this particular thread.

It makes perfect sense. I didn't claim anything, if you want the word "crap" withdrawn then I withdraw it but it was obviously a generalisation anyway. This is a pro-Sobers thread celebrating his career, yet some people are so determined to prove his bowling was poor that they hi-jack it.

 

[BhupinderSingh]

It makes perfect sense. I didn't claim anything, if you want the word "crap" withdrawn then I withdraw it but it was obviously a generalisation anyway. This is a pro-Sobers thread celebrating his career, yet some people are so determined to prove his bowling was poor that they hi-jack it.

Well,all I have been arguing is that Sobers was a mediocre bowler & not good enough to get a chance to bowl in alltime XI & therefore shoulkd not be preferreed over Imran & Miller.

 

[Sanz]

No,that is not fair enough Fusion.If I & Kazo are just using stats to prove Sobers was a mediocre bowler then pro-Sobers community is also just using articles of different journalists to prove Sobers was a fine or good bowler.They have the right to keep us away from discussion only if they use anything beside those articles and opinions that Sobers was a good enough to get a chance to bowl in an alltime XI.Otherwise,they have absolutely no right to ask us to keep away from these threads.

First of all there is no such thing called 'Pro-Sobers Community', Secondly I am not selectively posting stuff to prove that Sobers was a 'fine,good or great' bowler, and lastly, I am not even arguing that Sobers was a good enough bowler to bowl in an alltime XI, at least not in this thread. This thread is an attempt (at least for someone as ignorant as me) to find the true worth of Sobers the Bowler with the help of History, word of his contemporaries(Players, Writers, commentators, fans anyone) and ofcourse his stats.

I have been reading Almanack and other resources available on the net and posting whatever relevent information I can find about Sobers' bowling. It is not my fault If Almanack doesn't have anything negative to say about his bowling.

One of us uses opinions of different people and other statistics,aren't both of us depicting trollish behaviour then?

No. So far, in this thread, I have not posted anything that can be deemed as provocative and/or repititive. Neither have I tried to force you or anyone else to accept Sobers' greatness as a bowler or allrounder. All I am saying is, If stats are the only criteria you are going to use to make your opinion, then a. this thread isn't the right place to do so b. you have already made the point many times elsewhere c. There is a thread still open if you still want to carry on making the same point.