On Picking an English Keeper

[Richard]

I won't argue about his keeping which was pretty poor, although (and you'd expect me to say this) his faults have been overstated over the past year. So I take your point about him not keeping wicket.

True thaaaaat. Prior has basically had 2 bad Tests, the Third Test against India and the Third Test in Sri Lanka. Trouble is that both times he was truly horrible and caused significant blunt to the prospects of man who was far and away England's most potent threat (ie, Sidebottom).

I don't find your Bell comparison persuasive. The point is that keeping wicket drains a player - compare Sangakkara's or Stewart's batting records when keeping and when not keeping. As a keeper, his batting record was decent. I think it's fair to suppose that as a specialist batsman it would be better.

I'm always highly reluctant with this, as I wish Sangakkara had never kept in a Test match, and I wish Stewart had never again played as a specialist bat after 1993. Suffice to say that I think Sangakkara's massively polarised record is more coincidence than anything, and that Stewart once he got the gloves long-term, performed superbly with the bat.

You're right that keeping wicket is obviously a drain on a player - but unless you can keep wicket to the requistite standards, you cannnot for mine be considered as the best of a bunch of batsman-wicketkeepers.

As for whether, as a specialist batsman, he'd have more to offer than Shah, Joyce or Bopara, this really remains to be seen. I'd expect Shah, Bopara and Prior to be given further opportunities in due course (Joyce seems out of favour) so we can all watch and learn.

Prior's years over Shah immediately give him an advantage there.

 

[Kweek]

Foster for keeper!


my 2 cents.

 

[aussie]

As Bennett has said earlier this thread - I've been far less impressed with Prior's batting than some. Sure, it hasn't been all bad, but nor was Geraint Jones'. Prior bashed an abysmally poor West Indies attack, could barely score a run against a pretty good India one and did decently against a Lankan attack that veered from deadly to pretty pedestrian.

Prior has long been someone who has struck me as weak against high-quality seam and swing. I'd virtually never seen him bat against spin of any real note and his play in SL surprised me somewhat with how good it usually was. But I think the way people talk it's as if Prior's Test batting was far better than it actually was.

On the bolded based on what i've seen i'd say Prior looks a more sound batsman all-round than Jones.

- Prior yea may have problems againts a high quality seam-attack but i guess so would most international keepers except for Sangakkara & Boucher (at times). This point though is only relevant to the role which you want Prior to play in the side:

Firstly it has been mentioned maybe Prior batting @ 6 thus bringing England back to the days of 5 bowlers. I am not for that ATM since i believe once all are fit ENG can manage with 4 bowlers in most conditions unless you go to the sub-continent & want to accomodate 2 spinners & the fact that Prior would have to bat a few seasons scoring heavily as a keeper-bat like Pothas for him to convince all his batting is that good.

But if he does down the line i could agree with it given that i heard Alec Stewart say on the Radio when i was on the road that he has been personally working with Prior & has seen improvement in his glovework.

 

[Richard]

Prior yea may have problems againts a high quality seam-attack but i guess so would most international keepers except for Sangakkara & Boucher (at times). This point though is only relevant to the role which you want Prior to play in the side:

Being able to combat good seam-bowling is highly important to ANY role in the side where batting calibre is involved. Simple as.

 

[aussie]

Being able to combat good seam-bowling is highly important to ANY role in the side where batting calibre is involved. Simple as.

Not for keeper, come on not many keepers in the games history have had batting ability of Sanga, Gilly, Flower, Stewart Parks, Lindsay, Ames, Moin (at his peak) where they could combat high-quality bowling attacks given they usually bat @ 7 & they are usually asked to be able contribute sufficienty i.e 25+ average given that their glovewrok is priority & the fact most of the runs is expected to come from the top 6. If they bat well enough to average 35+ its a HUGE bonus since it can give a side great balance.

Prior if his keeping really has improved as Mr.Stewart claims based on the balance of the ENG test side i think he can be recalled.

 

[Richard]

I do and always have rated Ambrose as better at combating the seamers than Prior. I hope Steven Davies is likewise, though I've never really taken much note of his run-scoring patterns to date in his career, and obviously with the negligable amount of First-Class cricket we get televised am unlikely to see him bat there.

If these two didn't exist Prior might have a case for being the best batsman of English wicketkeepers, but I don't feel he does.

 

[Goughy]

Id be happy for a good keeper capable of averaging 30+ with the bat and capable of occasional Test hundreds and frequent useful lower order partnerships.

They dont have to bat like Bradman but they need to be useful.

Id pick the best batsmen of the best keepers. Someone who is good at their primary role (as keeping ability is the first filter) and good at their secondary skill (as the batting filter is only applied to those that meet the keeping requirements)

 

[Richard]

And right now, I feel the man who best fits that description is Ambrose. In future, I hope it'll be Davies.

And hopefully, Davies' time is soon.

 

[whitedazzler]

seems like the theory goes pick him, he'll get a 100 and a few 50s in the first couple of tests drop some catches get a pair and let the next guy have a go

 

[NZTailender]

Foster imo.

 

[aussie]

And right now, I feel the man who best fits that description is Ambrose. In future, I hope it'll be Davies.

And hopefully, Davies' time is soon.

Again it comes down to the balance of the side. If the formation is 6 bats, Freddie, Keeper, 3 bowlers then Foster fits Goughy solid criteria.

If all are fit & its 5 bowlers (given the question marks over the fragility of Flintoff & Jones) then its open for debate.

 

[Goughy]

TBH, Im yet to be convinced Foster can score hundreds with occasional frequency at Test level or average 30+

A 30 av is the absolute minimum I would consider. Less than 30 is Jack Russell and despite being a very good keeper that hurts the balance of the side.

 

[aussie]

When i saw balance for me is all players fit who would constitute the best ENG XI ATM, which for me (excluding a keeper for now) would be:

Strauss
Cook
Vaughan
KP
Bell
Collingwood
Flintoff
? - Keeper
Jones
Sidebottom
Panesar/Hoggard/Anderson

Although some may argue this bowling attack is vulnerable given that Freddie & Jones can possibly break down anytime. Its still an option & in such a side i would say we need the best keeper who can contribute sufficiently with the willow so its Foster hands down.


If we want to go back to the Ashes days of 5 bowlers then your keeper criteria is enforced where ATM Prior becomes the only option given that if we are going to sacrifice a batsman i.e Collingwood to beef up the bowling resources given the vulnerability of Jones & Freddie to get a freak injury then criteria of the keeper batting ability has to be 35+ average & Flintoff's batting needs to move to the next level.

 

[GIMH]

Having a Keeper clearly hasn't worked for us these last few years. I say we bin the position altogether, play four slips instead or maybe an extra gully.

Cook
Strauss
Vaughan
Pietersen
Bell
Collingwood
Flintoff
Broad
Sidebottom
Jones/Anderson
Panesar

 

[steds]

Having a Keeper clearly hasn't worked for us these last few years. I say we bin the position altogether, play four slips instead or maybe an extra gully.

Even a coat rack with a pair of gloves on it would be an improvement on Prior.

 

[GIMH]

Even a coat rack with a pair of gloves on it would be an improvement on Prior.

 

[The Masterplan]

Theres only one man for the job IMO

..so the side should look like this

Strauss
Trescothick
Bell
Vaughan
Pieterson
Flintoff
G.Jones
Giles
S.Jones
Hoggard
Harmison

..With any luck Gilo will come out of retirement ad we will be unstoppable..

 

[GIMH]

Theres only one man for the job IMO

..so the side should look like this

Strauss
Trescothick
Bell
Vaughan
Pieterson
Flintoff
G.Jones
Giles
S.Jones
Hoggard
Harmison

..With any luck Gilo will come out of retirement ad we will be unstoppable..

GIMH!!!

 

[The Masterplan]

HaHa.. but all joking aside...

I would really put Gereint back in the side.. hes a legend

..a good keeper, an exellent batsmen.. and hes not a bald **** like the last 4 keepers england have had!!

 

[GIMH]

Well, picking on amount of hair certainly worked when it came to selecting Sidebottom