***Official*** South Africa in England

[Uppercut]

If both could stay fit, and you could be sure of that, Jones is a better bowler than Flintoff for my money anyway.

 

[Richard]

I'm certainly not saying Lord's > Old Trafford as far as pitch-churning-out in recent times is concerned, nor that it's justifiable for Lord's to have two Tests per season and Old Trafford (and others) none.

Simply suggesting that Lord's hasn't been quite the pancake some seem to be implying it has.

 

[Richard]

If both could stay fit, and you could be sure of that, Jones is a better bowler than Flintoff for my money anyway.

 

[Uppercut]

I'm certainly not saying Lord's > Old Trafford as far as pitch-churning-out in recent times is concerned, nor that it's justifiable for Lord's to have two Tests per season and Old Trafford (and others) none.

Simply suggesting that Lord's hasn't been quite the pancake some seem to be implying it has.

Yeah. It's overplayed to an extent when you look at raw statistics, but i still think there's some truth in it. They could do a lot better.

Not this time though, obviously not much could've been done.

 

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

If both could stay fit, and you could be sure of that, Jones is a better bowler than Flintoff for my money anyway.

Haha. Really? On the basis of what? Jones has had one outstanding series and Flintoff had an outstanding couple of years before his injury. You surely cannot be serious. Because everything indicates that you're incorrect.

 

[Richard]

The notion of Jones being potentially a better bowler than Flintoff over the next, say, 3 years, isn't an absurd one.

However, the notion that he has been to date has nothing going for it.

 

[Uppercut]

Haha. Really? On the basis of what? Jones has had one outstanding series and Flintoff had an outstanding couple of years before his injury. You surely cannot be serious. Because everything indicates that you're incorrect.

Maybe i'm nostalgic.

Nah it just sounds to me like Jones has been bowling an awful lot more and an awful lot better than Freddie has this season. Not agree?

 

[Howzatone]

Haha. Really? On the basis of what? Jones has had one outstanding series and Flintoff had an outstanding couple of years before his injury. You surely cannot be serious. Because everything indicates that you're incorrect.

Simon Jones' Test Bowling Average is 28.23
Andrew Flintoff's Test Bowling Average is 32.02

I know that doesn't mean Jones is a better bowler than Flintoff but it shows Jones being considered a better bowler than Flintoff isn't completely ridiculous.

 

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

Maybe i'm nostalgic.

Nah it just sounds to me like Jones has been bowling an awful lot more and an awful lot better than Freddie has this season. Not agree?

Well he's been fit an awful lot more than Flintoff. And from all reports Flintoff was bowling brilliantly before his most recent injury. Jones' figures are better because he's had the benefit of bowling at, and cleaning up, the tail a few times. He's bowled very well, I've read and heard, but I wouldn't read too much into his incredible figures.

Also, because he's outbowled Flintoff in half a season, he's a better bowler?

 

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

Simon Jones' Test Bowling Average is 28.23
Andrew Flintoff's Test Bowling Average is 32.02

I know that doesn't mean Jones is a better bowler than Flintoff but it shows Jones being considered a better bowler than Flintoff isn't completely ridiculous.

Yes it does, for anyone who actually watched the two men bowl.

Flintoff had a very poor start to his Test career because he was picked way too early when he was literally a crap bowler. When he matured into a world class bowler, he was just that- outstanding. To date Jones has had one outstanding series, as I stated before. Flintoff has had an outstanding couple of years. It is pretty ridiculous if you look further than the basic statistics.

 

[BoyBrumby]

Well he's been fit an awful lot more than Flintoff.

You do know who Simon Jones is, right?

 

[Uppercut]

Simon Jones' Test Bowling Average is 28.23
Andrew Flintoff's Test Bowling Average is 32.02

I know that doesn't mean Jones is a better bowler than Flintoff but it shows Jones being considered a better bowler than Flintoff isn't completely ridiculous.

Also Jones has a far superior strike rate in county cricket, and took wickets consistently for England. It wasn't "one good series".

http://blogs.cricinfo.com/itfigures/archives/2008/02/

 

[Uppercut]

Yes it does, for anyone who actually watched the two men bowl.

Flintoff had a very poor start to his Test career because he was picked way too early when he was literally a crap bowler. When he matured into a world class bowler, he was just that- outstanding. To date Jones has had one outstanding series, as I stated before. Flintoff has had an outstanding couple of years. It is pretty ridiculous if you look further than the basic statistics.

Flintoff's achievements are obviously significantly greater than Jones's. For the England team now, i don't believe he'd do any better than Jones would, assuming fitness.

 

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

The statistics btw:

Jones first 14 Tests: 41 wickets @ 31.41
Jones 4 Ashes Tests: 18 wickets @ 21.00

It shows how much that one series improved his career figures. He bowled exceptionally in that series, but so did Flintoff. The important thing to remember is that Flintoff was bowling exceptionally before that series too.

 

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

You do know who Simon Jones is, right?

This season.

Simon Jones has attained better match fitness than Flintoff this season, I think it's fair to say.

EDIT: To explain further, I say this because when Flintoff was bowling really well, he got injured and only returned recently. Jones, when he found (apparently) his top form, was able to string a few more matches together than Flintoff did.

 

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

Also Jones has a far superior strike rate in county cricket, and took wickets consistently for England. It wasn't "one good series".

http://blogs.cricinfo.com/itfigures/archives/2008/02/

Did you actually watch the two men bowl? Or do you just look at statistics? Because it's very obvious who the better bowler was. Flintoff's county record is the same situation with his international record. Played when he was dire and his career record suffers for it.

 

[Uppercut]

The statistics btw:

Jones first 14 Tests: 41 wickets @ 31.41
Jones 4 Ashes Tests: 18 wickets @ 21.00

It shows how much that one series improved his career figures. He bowled exceptionally in that series, but so did Flintoff. The important thing to remember is that Flintoff was bowling exceptionally before that series too.

Jones first 14 Tests: 41 wickets @ 31.41
Jones 4 Ashes Tests: 18 wickets @ 21.00
Andrew Flintoff's Career average is 32.02


Obviously that doesn't tell the whole story. But it hardly makes the comparison stupid.

 

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

As I've said 2-3 times already in this thread, Flintoff's career average is skewed on account of him being rubbish at the start of his career. It's very, very, painfully obvious.

 

[Uppercut]

Did you actually watch the two men bowl? Or do you just look at statistics? Because it's very obvious who the better bowler was. Flintoff's county record is the same situation with his international record. Played when he was dire and his career record suffers for it.

I'd say, if Flintoff had broken down rather than Jones at the end of summer '05, he'd have bowled as well if not better than Flintoff did over the next two years. Jones was cut down just when he was hitting his peak, Flintoff had a lot more tests to prove himself when he was in top form.

 

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

I'd say, if Flintoff had broken down rather than Jones at the end of summer '05, he'd have bowled as well if not better than Flintoff did over the next two years. Jones was cut down just when he was hitting his peak, Flintoff had a lot more tests to prove himself when he was in top form.

There was no way to tell that Jones would go on to be better than Flintoff after the Ashes. Remember Flintoff was brilliant in that series too and had already proven that he could bowl effectively outside of England. Jones had, at that stage, not proven any such thing. It's one thing to steam in and swing the ball a mile when you're pumped up on adrenaline in an Ashes Test in front of one of the most engaged and vibrant audiences in the history of English cricket. That, particularly when you're the celebrity-prone type that Jones appears to be. It's entirely another to perform when momentum is not on your side.

You talk as though Flintoff did not prove himself after he matured into a quality bowler. The fact is that, when Flintoff went down, he had established himself as world class. Jones had done no such thing. I'm as big a fan of the guy as any non-English/Welshman, but Flintoff > Jones.