***Official*** South Africa in England

[Top_Cat]

I hope not. That would be a horrible move.

Good lord, you couldn't be more right. Batting Fred top-6 was a dodgy when he was batting well. Now, forget about it. This was the debate a few months ago that if Fred can't shoulder a full bowling workload, it'd be hard to fit him in anywhere in the side.

Personally, keep Colly in for the series then re-assess.

EDIT: Just had a look and, frankly, can't understand why Flintoff would even be considered for the Test side on form. 91 runs in 6 knocks, not exactly sterling stuff;

http://stats.cricinfo.com/countycri...career.html?id=3632;team=1167;type=tournament

 

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

Get Ramprakash in there. Oh wait...

 

[Prince EWS]

EDIT: Just had a look and, frankly, can't understand why Flintoff would even be considered for the Test side on form.

Bowling, obviously.

He has no right to replace a batsman at the moment but he's England's best bowler.

 

[Top_Cat]

Bowling, obviously.

He has no right to replace a batsman at the moment but he's England's best bowler.

If Bell or Colly's spot is supposedly under threat, surely that means he's being looked at for his batting too? And has he really got that much bowling under his belt to be able to get back into the Test side? If we accept that he won't be picked to bat top-6, that means he'd have to replace one of the bowlers and I can see only Broad as being vulnerable but at least with Broad, he's more likely to get through the Test!

 

[Prince EWS]

If Bell or Colly's spot is supposedly under threat

He doesn't have to take one of those spots though; he could replace Broad or Anderson instead. As I said, he has no right a batting place at the moment, but as long as he was fit he'd make the Test team averaging a negative amount with the bat. His batting is not imperative.

 

[Top_Cat]

He doesn't have to take one of those spots though; he could replace Broad or Anderson instead. As I said, he has no right a batting place at the moment, but as long as he was fit he'd make the Test team averaging a negative amount with the bat. His batting is not imperative.

See, I dispute that. Only insofar as he doesn't appear to have much in the way of bowling form and miles in the legs, so to speak. When he's at his best, he'd make any pace attack in the world, no question, but I doubt he's anywhere near his best right now. You wouldn't back him to bowl 30 overs in a day so he needs to get his work-rate up or bat better to be picked, in my view. I wouldn't pick him yet.

 

[Laurrz]

wd Poms, it must be said when they had that collapsed you thought 'here we go again they'll get rolled for 200 odd'

But Bell's little aggressive 30 at the start really helped i thought, they could've got bogged down and there couldve been pressure but he kept at it and kept the Saffer bowlers on their toes

lol at the talk of South Africas gunnish pace attack ..... i suppose it is a flat pitch though

 

[superkingdave]

See, I dispute that. Only insofar as he doesn't appear to have much in the way of bowling form and miles in the legs, so to speak. When he's at his best, he'd make any pace attack in the world, no question, but I doubt he's anywhere near his best right now. You wouldn't back him to bowl 30 overs in a day so he needs to get his work-rate up or bat better to be picked, in my view. I wouldn't pick him yet.

well, his bowling has been pretty decent whenever he has bowled this year, it's his batting which seems to need a lot of time to get in form..which he's actually looked like he is starting to perk up a bit. We'll see this weekend with his bowling, he bowled his fair share in the last County championship match...to ask him to bowl 30 overs a day is unfair, if you get 20 good overs out of him a day i'd have him in the side as a bowler. Also when injured this year, he didn't break down in a match, he took 7-43 in his last game before the side strain.

Would be interesting to see what kind of overs a day Broad is getting for England, can only think of the third test in New Zealand where he's had a heavy workload. Even saying that imo 15 overs from Flintoff & 5 From Collingwood > 20 From Broad

 

[_Ed_]

Captain ****'s face when he applauded the ton was worth the admission fee alone.

Well said.

 

[pasag]

I know it's a bit early in the day, but this SA attack on Australian flat pitches isn't going to have a lot of success for mine. I didn't watch much of their series in India (besides youtube highlights), but judging by the Sehwag demolition on that track plus this doesn't give me a lot of confidence.

 

[Laurrz]

I know it's a bit early in the day, but this SA attack on Australian flat pitches isn't going to have a lot of success for mine. I didn't watch much of their series in India (besides youtube highlights), but judging by the Sehwag demolition on that track plus this doesn't give me a lot of confidence.

Yeah i have to admit i've been thinking of that as well
Seem like a dangerous unit for sure, but bowl a lot of four balls and release pressure balls

But it's too early to tell, of course, so yea

 

[Top_Cat]

I know it's a bit early in the day, but this SA attack on Australian flat pitches isn't going to have a lot of success for mine. I didn't watch much of their series in India (besides youtube highlights), but judging by the Sehwag demolition on that track plus this doesn't give me a lot of confidence.

It is too early to tell but certainly, people have a tendency to over-rate the South African attack. They've had plenty of good pace bowlers yet have struggled at certain key Tests, such as a tour to Australia. The attack of Donald, De-Villiers, Kallis, Matthews/Klusener and Pollock was noticeably more accomplished than this one yet they struggled too. I think this attack struggles for consistency a bit and have long periods where they're unthreatening, probably due to lack of variation more than anything.

 

[tooextracool]

It is too early to tell but certainly, people have a tendency to over-rate the South African attack. They've had plenty of good pace bowlers yet have struggled at certain key Tests, such as a tour to Australia. The attack of Donald, De-Villiers, Kallis, Matthews/Klusener and Pollock was noticeably more accomplished than this one yet they struggled too. I think this attack struggles for consistency a bit and have long periods where they're unthreatening, probably due to lack of variation more than anything.

the attack that included de-villiers and matthews actually drew a series 1-1 down under. Thea reason why SA lost frequently to Australia in the 90s was really down to 2 reasons: Shane Warne, and SA own ability to choke under pressure especially against Australia, a challenge they never overcame. It would obviously have helped if they had a decent spinner, but there was never a deficiency in their pace battery. If anything their fast bowlers were always a cut ahead of Australias.

 

[tooextracool]

I know it's a bit early in the day, but this SA attack on Australian flat pitches isn't going to have a lot of success for mine. I didn't watch much of their series in India (besides youtube highlights), but judging by the Sehwag demolition on that track plus this doesn't give me a lot of confidence.

I think we can only judge based on how the England bowlers bowl in the same conditions. however I expect little difference considering the pitch is dead flat and that 90 mph bowlers were being pulled by Pietersen through mid wicket earlier today. SA clearly did not bowl as well as they can but they were hampered by a very flat pitch.
Lets also remember that 2 out of 4 of the current SA pacers in the squad caused a fair few problems in Australian conditions last time around. Ok so Ntini isnt as good as he was but Steyn is an improvement on Pollock. No need to start jumping up and down because I cant seem them performing too much worse than the current Aussie bowling lineup.

 

[tooextracool]

well, his bowling has been pretty decent whenever he has bowled this year, it's his batting which seems to need a lot of time to get in form..which he's actually looked like he is starting to perk up a bit. We'll see this weekend with his bowling, he bowled his fair share in the last County championship match...to ask him to bowl 30 overs a day is unfair, if you get 20 good overs out of him a day i'd have him in the side as a bowler. Also when injured this year, he didn't break down in a match, he took 7-43 in his last game before the side strain.

Would be interesting to see what kind of overs a day Broad is getting for England, can only think of the third test in New Zealand where he's had a heavy workload. Even saying that imo 15 overs from Flintoff & 5 From Collingwood > 20 From Broad

IMO SP Jones is closer to being ready for selection than Flintoff. Nonetheless, this England attack without either is rather toothless.

 

[Top_Cat]

the attack that included de-villiers and matthews actually drew a series 1-1 down under. Thea reason why SA lost frequently to Australia in the 90s was really down to 2 reasons: Shane Warne, and SA own ability to choke under pressure especially against Australia, a challenge they never overcame. It would obviously have helped if they had a decent spinner, but there was never a deficiency in their pace battery. If anything their fast bowlers were always a cut ahead of Australias.

Yeah true. Aside from that first series, they did under-perform relative to what they were doing to other teams though. And you wanna talk choking? How about Australia's choke in Sydney 1994.....! The pitch wasn't that bad, the Aussies just choked.

 

[pasag]

I think we can only judge based on how the England bowlers bowl in the same conditions. however I expect little difference considering the pitch is dead flat and that 90 mph bowlers were being pulled by Pietersen through mid wicket earlier today. SA clearly did not bowl as well as they can but they were hampered by a very flat pitch.
Lets also remember that 2 out of 4 of the current SA pacers in the squad caused a fair few problems in Australian conditions last time around. Ok so Ntini isnt as good as he was but Steyn is an improvement on Pollock. No need to start jumping up and down because I cant seem them performing too much worse than the current Aussie bowling lineup.

Who is jumping up and down?

 

[tooextracool]

Yeah true. Aside from that first series, they did under-perform relative to what they were doing to other teams though. And you wanna talk choking? How about Australia's choke in Sydney 1994.....! The pitch wasn't that bad, the Aussies just choked.

They probably should have chased that down shouldnt they? 115 odd. Nonetheless I thought Devilliers bowled a fine spell of conventional swing bowling that helped hasten their demise at Sydney.

 

[Laurrz]

Thea reason why SA lost frequently to Australia in the 90s was really down to 2 reasons: Shane Warne, .

so trrrrrue

*sigh.. really was the difference between the two sides...

 

[Top_Cat]

They probably should have chased that down shouldnt they? 115 odd. Nonetheless I thought Devilliers bowled a fine spell of conventional swing bowling that helped hasten their demise at Sydney.

Sending out two nightwatchment in a row, who were knocked-off by Fanie quite quickly, didn't help matters. They were clearly protecting Marto and you do wonder whether his refusal to get out there and bat had more to do with him being dropped for years than the shot he played later.