India All Time XI

[aussie]

1. Gavaskar
2. Merchant
3. Dravid
4. Tendulkar
5. Hazare (RAMP)
6. Mankad (LAS)
7. Kapil Dev (RAFM)
8. Engineer
9. Amar Singh (RAFM)
10. Gupte (RALS)
11. Prasanna (RAOS)

12. GR Vishwanath​

With the two greatest Indian all rounders in the side, I am able to play five bowlers PLUS there is the medium pace of Hazare who was like hammond in quality.

Putting Mankad in makes the task of leaving out the greatest left arm spinner I have seen in almost fifty years of watching the game easier.

Prasanna and Gupte, added to Mankad, cover the entire spectrum of spin bowling with world class skills. I leave out Chandra because for me, while he could win games for you single handedly, he could also bowl very shoddy stuff in between and his terrible, terrible fielding makes it a bit easy to find an excuse to leave him out when you have an embarassment of riches as we have with spin in any all time India selection.

I prefer Gupte over Kumble because I think he was a better bowler on all types of wickets while Kumble has looked toothless on some surfaces and with Kapil, Amar Singh and Hazare, I thought I did not need another medium pacer

The tough choice was choosing between Amar Singh and Nissar. Nissar was clearly the faster bowler and I almost went ahead with him but Amar Singh was no slouch on the speed front and by all accounts was a very crafty bowler. His brilliant fielding and more than useful batting also helped me decide this tight one in a side traditionally considered weak on the field. Amar Singh could be expected to bolster the tail with some solid cricketing strokes of power.

I have left out both the great captains India has had, Lala Amarnath and Pataudi Jr. I would ask Dravid to lead the side. I think he is a better captain than Gavaskar the other main contender.

My one great regret, besides leaving out Bedi, is having to leave out GR Vishwanath. I would have him in the 12 and the side could play him if they felt, one less bowler would do on a particular track.

Last but not the least, I had a tougher time choosing between Sehwag and Merchant than many might suspect. I finally settled for Merchant since this is a Test side and I presume if this side had to 'hypothetically' confronted with another, it would be a similar all time side of, say, England or Australia. I suspect that Merchant might fare better against the wiles, guiles and skills of bowlers like Barnes, Trueman, Bedser and Verity or Lindwall, Lillee, O'rielly and Spofforth than Sehwag.

I realise I could be wrong but there is no way you can prove that can you

You are not the first older person to rate Vishwanath this highly that i've heard, given that i presume SJS that you have seen from Umrigar to Laxman what is it about Vishwanath.

 

[Sanz]

It's not contradictory .... link

I m picking Amar and Nissar in the same way, ppl picked Merchant

Others did, you didn't. You are making the same arguments for Amar/Nissar for which you mocked others when they made those arguments in favor of VM.

Hence the contradiction, in your pick.

 

[ret]

Others did, you didn't. You are making the same arguments for Amar/Nissar for which you mocked others when they made those arguments in favor of VM.

Hence the contradiction, in your pick.

yeah, right

 

[SJS]

You are not the first older person to rate Vishwanath this highly that i've heard, given that i presume SJS that you have seen from Umrigar to Laxman what is it about Vishwanath.

Ok. Let me try to enumerate it in bullet points to keep it short for when writing about Gungappa Vishwanath one can forget oneself and write pages.

1. He was the finest player of fast bowling - and I mean high quality fast bowling which means really fast and with movement whether in the air and/or off the wicket - that I ever saw. There are great players of fast bowling like Gavaskar who can see where it is going to a millimeter and leave it unless they think its going to crash on to their stumps or defend it with a rock solid defense.

But Vishwanth would play the most audacious shots of those he would have been applauded for being able to defend successfully. His strokes of the front foot were fabulous but his backfoot play to the finest bowling under helpful conditions against master bowlers like Andy Roberts was nothing short of magic.

2. His technique was flawless. He played each and every stroke in the book (and quite a few that you felt no one would attempt) and played them to perfection. He drove half volleys perfectly but played almost everything else off the backfoot and invariably had time to spare. He showed to the world what a great backfoot player could do against the best of fast bowling.

3. He was as beautiful to watch as someone like Laxman but he had the great technique and flawless footwork that Laxman lacked.

The question then arises, why is he not in my XI. He would never go on batting and grinding the bowling into dust as Gavaskar or a Dravid will do. If the team was in trouble and the bowling was unplayable, Vishwanath would have all his faculties at FULL ALERT and bat as if it was child's play and with great concentration which wasn't apparent because he continued playing those strokes.

But let the bowling become ordinary and easy for any Tom Dick and 'Hari' to handle it and Vishwanath would be bored, p[lay some audacious stroke even for his great standards in 'audacious stroke play' and walk off before the catch had been pouched (or so it appeared),

With the result that he did not make all those big double hundreds that Gavaskar and Dravid will tote up and appear greater Test players to all and sundry. I think, Dravid would be honoured to be dropped from that side I named if he was pipped to it by Vishwanath and I would feel I had not pandered to the statistically minded audience when I named that side.

 

[Richard]

Always a real shame when you read about players who could not motivate themselves to score runs under all circumstances.

Sadly, these players are never those I can bring myself to rank alongside those who could. I will not toe the "he could have if he'd wanted to so therefore he's the same as those who could and did" line that some trot-out.

Not to say that you are one of these people SJS.

 

[SJS]

Always a real shame when you read about players who could not motivate themselves to score runs under all circumstances.

Sadly, these players are never those I can bring myself to rank alongside those who could. I will not toe the "he could have if he'd wanted to so therefore he's the same as those who could and did" line that some trot-out.

Not to say that you are one of these people SJS.

I think you misunderstood that. Its not as if he did not score runs in all circumstances. He did. He just did not go on and on turning those hundreds into doubles and big doubles.

If you have to hold that against a great batsman, let me offer you the biggest name with that same quality of not going for the real big one's when he had everything required to do so and tell me where you rate him in your pantheon - his name - John Berry Hobbs.

 

[Richard]

Hobbs' "a century is enough, I'll give someone else a go" attitude has always been a source of great disappointment to me. Had he not possessed this, he could have been a more phenomenal batsman still than he was.

Nonetheless, I still think he did enough to rate as the greatest opener there's ever been, or at least post-1900. And that's what I think of him.

 

[weldone]

The Final XI selected by CW members:

V. Merchant
S. Gavaskar
R. Dravid
S. Tendulkar
V. Hazare
K. Dev
F. Engineer(wk)
A. Singh
A. Kumble
J. Srinath
B. Bedi

 

[SJS]

Hobbs' "a century is enough, I'll give someone else a go" attitude has always been a source of great disappointment to me. Had he not possessed this, he could have been a more phenomenal batsman still than he was.

Nonetheless, I still think he did enough to rate as the greatest opener there's ever been, or at least post-1900. And that's what I think of him.

I am also disappointed he did not score more double and even triple and quadruples buyt I differ with you one point.

It would not have resulted in his becoming a more phenomenal batsman still than he was, he would be the same batsman but with a more phenomenal record and I love phenomenal records like everyone else

 

[Richard]

Nah, see, I say the more phenomenal record would have made him a more phenomenal batsman. The batsman would have been the same person, but he'd have been greater still had he been more run-hungry. All his other skills would have been the same, but that one skill's increase would have made him better.

 

[Richard]

The Final XI selected by CW members:

V. Merchant
S. Gavaskar
R. Dravid
S. Tendulkar
V. Hazare
K. Dev
F. Engineer(wk)
A. Singh
A. Kumble
J. Srinath
B. Bedi

Can't disagree with too much of thaaaaaaaaaaat but I'd always have Gupte ahead of Bedi and I think the selection of Srinath ahead of Nissar is based on plain ignorance.

BTW, we should have polls for two first-reserve players - two bowlers and two batsmen. I would say the wicketkeeper too, but it wouldn't even need one, Kirmani every single time.

 

[sanga1337]

The Final XI selected by CW members:

V. Merchant
S. Gavaskar
R. Dravid
S. Tendulkar
V. Hazare
K. Dev
F. Engineer(wk)
A. Singh
A. Kumble
J. Srinath
B. Bedi

Certainly has a lot of bowling options. Wouldn't mind replacing Srinath or singh with a spinner like Gupte as Hazare seems to be a fairly decent medium pace bowler.

 

[aussie]

Ok. Let me try to enumerate it in bullet points to keep it short for when writing about Gungappa Vishwanath one can forget oneself and write pages.

1. He was the finest player of fast bowling - and I mean high quality fast bowling which means really fast and with movement whether in the air and/or off the wicket - that I ever saw. There are great players of fast bowling like Gavaskar who can see where it is going to a millimeter and leave it unless they think its going to crash on to their stumps or defend it with a rock solid defense.

But Vishwanth would play the most audacious shots of those he would have been applauded for being able to defend successfully. His strokes of the front foot were fabulous but his backfoot play to the finest bowling under helpful conditions against master bowlers like Andy Roberts was nothing short of magic.

2. His technique was flawless. He played each and every stroke in the book (and quite a few that you felt no one would attempt) and played them to perfection. He drove half volleys perfectly but played almost everything else off the backfoot and invariably had time to spare. He showed to the world what a great backfoot player could do against the best of fast bowling.

3. He was as beautiful to watch as someone like Laxman but he had the great technique and flawless footwork that Laxman lacked.

The question then arises, why is he not in my XI. He would never go on batting and grinding the bowling into dust as Gavaskar or a Dravid will do. If the team was in trouble and the bowling was unplayable, Vishwanath would have all his faculties at FULL ALERT and bat as if it was child's play and with great concentration which wasn't apparent because he continued playing those strokes.

But let the bowling become ordinary and easy for any Tom Dick and 'Hari' to handle it and Vishwanath would be bored, p[lay some audacious stroke even for his great standards in 'audacious stroke play' and walk off before the catch had been pouched (or so it appeared),

With the result that he did not make all those big double hundreds that Gavaskar and Dravid will tote up and appear greater Test players to all and sundry. I think, Dravid would be honoured to be dropped from that side I named if he was pipped to it by Vishwanath and I would feel I had not pandered to the statistically minded audience when I named that side.

Intesting but wonderful reading as usual SJS, he must have been pretty good if you thought he was the best player of fast bowling that you ever saw. If its not too much writing for you Sir could you give me similar profiles on the likes of Umrigar & Vengsarkar based on what you have seen?.

 

[SJS]

Intesting but wonderful reading as usual SJS, he must have been pretty good if you thought he was the best player of fast bowling that you ever saw. If its not too much writing for you Sir could you give me similar profiles on the likes of Umrigar & Vengsarkar based on what you have seen?.

I was very young when I saw Umrigar bat. I saw him bat in a Test in December 1961 against Fazal Mehmood's Pakistan side when I was 11 . Not only was I too young and lacking in cricket nuances to recall his style but being seated at a stupid mid wicket position meant I had no clue what was happening with the ball. Not that I would have known. Me and my friends who ran away from school to watch the game chose that stand because we thought we would get to see the batsmen batting on either end !!

My memory of Vengsarkar is, of course, much more vivid considering he is 6 years younger to me

Vengsarkar was a very upright batsman. He stood straight and erect at the crease. He did not look particularly elegant as he took his stance and was not a very good starter. He played his shots standing very upright and looked awkward early in his innings. But trust me once he was settled with 20 runs under his belt, those drives started exploding.

He was all limbs, if you know what I mean. Long arms, long legs and looked kind of skinny with his limbs standing out. When you see someone like Gavaskar batting you do not notice the angularities at the elbows and the knees. With Vengsarkar, they were a vivid part of the image. If you have played with those metal toy skeletons which are stiff in the limbs with the only free movement being in the knees and the elbows and wrists, you will recall how the movements are. It was like that with Vengsarkar. Very angular and upright.

But his off side driving was absolutely fantastic. The longer he played the more his left foot started reaching out. Where at the start of his innings, he would barely put his foot 12 to 15 inches out and play on the rise, after half an hour, he would be reaching out fully with those long legs so that he could drive balls pitched wide of his off stump and not exactly half volleys, cleanly and all along the ground to cover and extra cover.

Another fantastic thing about Vengsarkar was that while he almost invariably drove his bullet like drives all along the carpet, he would suddenly decide to loft the ball and then his lifting was clean like a top quality golfer's tee shot.

The image of Vengsarkar is of a front foot driver but he played very powerful square and even late cuts and pulled and hooked ferociously and fearlessly and always hit the ball down as he pulled. I have seen him pulling fast bowlers to mid on with a superb cricketing shot.

He was a very fine player of spin and in his early days invariably danced out to the spinners and always met the ball on the half volley. In fact he shot to fame in an Irani Trophy match (Ranji Trophy Champions versus Rest of India) where as a 19 year old college student he hit Bedi and Prasanna, for God knows how many sixes scoring an electrifying 110. Bedi and Prasanna bowled 67 of the 97 overs in that innings and took 9 Bombay wickets but Vengsarkar was their master that day and a new star was born.

Later on he reduced his stepping out to spinners but always remained an aggressive batsman in intent. People do not tend to think of Vengsarkar when they talk of temperament but according to me he had a steel in his heart and never buckled under pressure and never refused to play his strokes (once past the early period always) against any bowler.

By the way, he was one of the finest slip fielders of his time.

 

[aussie]

I see so for you i an Indian All-time XI based on your line-up which i totally agree with if Dravid/Tendulkar/Hazare are certainties from numbers 3-5. If one fails and Vishwanath as you reckon should come in for a failure on overseas pitches @ #6 instead of Mankad or one of the spinners.

How would you personally in the line of order put the likes of Vengsarkar, Azharruddin, Umrigar, Laxman & Ganguly if more failures where to occur?.

 

[JBH001]

I
It would not have resulted in his becoming a more phenomenal batsman still than he was, he would be the same batsman but with a more phenomenal record and I love phenomenal records like everyone else

Agree with that SJS. I think that right there is one of the crucial sources of division on CW - that is the differentiation between the skill and talent of a batsman and his record. And that although one should be reflected in the other to an extent, they are certainly not indivisible one from the other. After reading SJS's comments I am more than pleased that I chose Vishy for the number 5 spot (having done some reading on him many years back in some old issues of sportstar) but now also wish I had gone with my original instinct and put Vishy in at 3 and Jimmy in at 5. Hence having a middle order of Vishwanath, Tendulkar, and Amarnath.

But meh, sure this thread or similar will come up again. It can wait till then.

 

[SJS]

Stuff on Gupte and other Indian heroes of the past

 

[Precambrian]

I was very young when I saw Umrigar bat. I saw him bat in a Test in December 1961 against Fazal Mehmood's Pakistan side when I was 11 . Not only was I too young and lacking in cricket nuances to recall his style but being seated at a stupid mid wicket position meant I had no clue what was happening with the ball. Not that I would have known. Me and my friends who ran away from school to watch the game chose that stand because we thought we would get to see the batsmen batting on either end !!

My memory of Vengsarkar is, of course, much more vivid considering he is 6 years younger to me

Vengsarkar was a very upright batsman. He stood straight and erect at the crease. He did not look particularly elegant as he took his stance and was not a very good starter. He played his shots standing very upright and looked awkward early in his innings. But trust me once he was settled with 20 runs under his belt, those drives started exploding.

He was all limbs, if you know what I mean. Long arms, long legs and looked kind of skinny with his limbs standing out. When you see someone like Gavaskar batting you do not notice the angularities at the elbows and the knees. With Vengsarkar, they were a vivid part of the image. If you have played with those metal toy skeletons which are stiff in the limbs with the only free movement being in the knees and the elbows and wrists, you will recall how the movements are. It was like that with Vengsarkar. Very angular and upright.

But his off side driving was absolutely fantastic. The longer he played the more his left foot started reaching out. Where at the start of his innings, he would barely put his foot 12 to 15 inches out and play on the rise, after half an hour, he would be reaching out fully with those long legs so that he could drive balls pitched wide of his off stump and not exactly half volleys, cleanly and all along the ground to cover and extra cover.

Another fantastic thing about Vengsarkar was that while he almost invariably drove his bullet like drives all along the carpet, he would suddenly decide to loft the ball and then his lifting was clean like a top quality golfer's tee shot.

The image of Vengsarkar is of a front foot driver but he played very powerful square and even late cuts and pulled and hooked ferociously and fearlessly and always hit the ball down as he pulled. I have seen him pulling fast bowlers to mid on with a superb cricketing shot.

He was a very fine player of spin and in his early days invariably danced out to the spinners and always met the ball on the half volley. In fact he shot to fame in an Irani Trophy match (Ranji Trophy Champions versus Rest of India) where as a 19 year old college student he hit Bedi and Prasanna, for God knows how many sixes scoring an electrifying 110. Bedi and Prasanna bowled 67 of the 97 overs in that innings and took 9 Bombay wickets but Vengsarkar was their master that day and a new star was born.

Later on he reduced his stepping out to spinners but always remained an aggressive batsman in intent. People do not tend to think of Vengsarkar when they talk of temperament but according to me he had a steel in his heart and never buckled under pressure and never refused to play his strokes (once past the early period always) against any bowler.

By the way, he was one of the finest slip fielders of his time.

Ooh... That was some awesome reading!

Can you put in some stuff like that regarding Subhash Gupte too? And your thoughts comparing him with Kumble? Thanks!

 

[SJS]

Ooh... That was some awesome reading!

Can you put in some stuff like that regarding Subhash Gupte too? And your thoughts comparing him with Kumble? Thanks!

Its there in this very thread but if you want to save yourself the trouble of looking for it, I have just posted it on the When will India become Number Uno? thread.

 

[Precambrian]

Its there in this very thread but if you want to save yourself the trouble of looking for it, I have just posted it on the When will India become Number Uno? thread.

Thank you. Interesting read about Vishy. Heard Mohinder Amarnath (IIRC) describing him as the ultimate bad-pitch specialist.