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Do England have a good enough team to win the Ashes next year ?

aussie

Hall of Fame Member
Do England have a good enough team to win the Ashes next year ?

The answer is NO, though a more appropriate question would have been, "Is Australia's decline so bad as to lose their grip on the Ashes ?"
Word out, but it probably depends on if they lose in ENG how they lose TBH. If we get the much wanted repeat of 05 then i wouldn't say so, but if their is a situation where ENG get the likes of Flintoff/Jones fit a firing along with Sidebottom in @ Aus capitulate againts high quality bowling then we could suggest a decline has come.
 

aussie

Hall of Fame Member
Jaques has played for all sorts of teams (Northants, Worcs and Yorks to name the three I know fo' sho') in all sorts of divisions, and done pretty uniformly superbly. Yes, this was all between 2003 and 2006 when the ball wasn't really swinging much, but even so.

I certainly have high hopes of Sidebottom (and Hoggard\Anderson) repeatedly nicking-off and smashing stumps of Hayden, if of course he makes it that far (which I do so hope he does) but Jaques has always been a batsman I've liked the look of, and I don't see him being unduly troubled by the swing, certainly no more than for instance Katich and Clarke were in 2005.
:laugh: . I shall mark these words for next summer.
 

aussie

Hall of Fame Member
I cannot understand how this current Australian side has better players at their disposal. There are only a handful of players in the current Australian side that are certainities in the side. Out of which Ponting is going to be nearly 35 while Hayden is going to be nearing 38 next summer and the batting essentially revolves around these 2. As far as the Australian bowling attack is concerned, my thoughts stand exactly where they did before the India tour, they are nothing more than very ordinary and the fact that Shaun Tait(please not him again) is still considered to be first in line as a replacement only goes to show how deep those reserves are.
Oh my, Mr.Tec i shall have to mark these words, though shall remember this as Tait's career progresses.
 

Isura

U19 Captain
Got a question for England supporters. What has Monty done in England to deserve a spot? Hoggard/Sidebottom/Flintoff/Jones is their best attack right?
 

Prince EWS

Global Moderator
Got a question for England supporters. What has Monty done in England to deserve a spot? Hoggard/Sidebottom/Flintoff/Jones is their best attack right?
The "what has he done?" question about Monty is a bit rich when you list Jones. He's only had one series of any note and it was three years ago; there's no denying his talent but his CV looks pretty blank. The fact that he has strung a few games together this season has lots of people excited, but he's had about five failed comebacks since 2005 and not only is he liable to go down at any point, but he might not even be that good if he stays out there..
 

sanga1337

U19 Captain
Got a question for England supporters. What has Monty done in England to deserve a spot? Hoggard/Sidebottom/Flintoff/Jones is their best attack right?
Monty has done plenty to get in the England team. Certainly he's done way more than Jones who hasn't played a test for 3 years. And if Flintoff is part of the bowling attack than Monty will be in the team anyway, if England do what they did when flintoff was fit and pick 4 bowlers plus flintoff
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
Hmm. It depends exactly why they are poor bowlers, for mine. Your statement would be true if you assumed that all poor bowlers bowl poorly every time, but that's not the case. Someone like Broad for example is just plainly not much chop in any circumstances at the moment and is highly unlikely to cause many problems even if he's at the top of his game. I don't think he'd add much as the fifth bowler picked at all other than reducing fatigue of other bowlers.

However, there are other ways in which a bowler can be poor. I'm sure you'll agree that Jimmy Anderson is a pretty poor Test bowler, but he's poor for significantly different reasons to Broad. He just can't consistently get his accuracy together. Some days, though, he can turn up, get it spot on and absolutely blitz a team - having two bowlers who can do this > having one bowler who can do this even if all concerned are poor overall, as you increase your chances of one of them paying off by having two of them.

This doesn't mean he'd add more than another batsman would in his place if you had four bowlers better than him in your team already, of course, but it does mean he'd add something to the team as a fifth bowler, even though he's poor overall.
TBH, if I have the choice between Anderson and someone else like him, or Anderson and another batsman, I'd take the another batsman every time. Anderson simply does not produce the goods anywhere near regularly enough (at the current time, obviously, though I'd not really expect that to change) to be worth the risk.

Most of the time, both bowlers will be poor. Yes, the chance is increased from small to fairly small if you have two of them, but I'd still say the overwhelming majority of occasions will see both be poor. So I'd prefer to have just the one and cut the losses.
 

Goughy

Hall of Fame Member
I think England can win.

It is as simple as if they play well, win key sessions and have some special performance and the Australians collectively underperform (I dont mean terrible but ordinary).

However, what is the probability of that? 'Can win' is very different to having a 'decent chance of winning'.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
Then why did Hayden score a ton in every test he played against an Indian attack this summer that was swinging it around and troubled all other Australian batsmen?
Hmm, I'll have to think about that one. I remember Jaques having a bit of trouble, and not really anyone else. The calibre of Indian swing-bowling last summer was highly praised, but it was far from top-notch. It was simply better than the mundane rubbish that's mostly been served-up in recent times, so naturally it seemed quite special. I don't remember Hayden keeping-out any particularly remarkable deliveries, less still ones that swung in. The few occasions the swinging was decent, it was away from the left-hander.
It's such a sweeping statement, and it's often made based upn Hayden's failure in 05, ignoring of course he'd been diabolical for 12 months before even going to England.
It's made based upon nothing of the sort, it's made based upon failures throughout his entire career. Both 1993/94-2001, and 2004/05-2005. Yes, Hayden had indeed been poor the previous SH summer too - that was because he was worked-out there as he was worked-out in England. Of all people, Kyle Mills has always had the measure of him, and of course so did Shoaib. Then it was Hoggard (and Flintoff, and Jones). Hayden was not out of nick in that time but simply came-up against something he had never had the power to resist. From 2005/06 onwards, he came-up against more of the sort of stuff he'd faced 2001/02-2004, and went back to prolific ways.
I mean, if we're all happy to ignore certain parts of one bloke's career coz he was either in a trot or injured but played through it, why don't you apply the sam rationale to Hayden?
I never say something should be ignored simply because someone wasn't playing very well, especially if not playing very well is something that player makes a habit of. If they shouldn't have been playing, yes, but I've not heard so much as a thing that was "wrong" with Hayden in 2004/05 and 2005.
Symonds has been lucky to be sure, but every player rides their luck mae, it's part of the game.
Most players aren't anywhere near as lucky as Symonds has been the last 12-16 months though. Hopefully some of that will come back to haunt him - a Martyn-2005-esque run next year would be very, very well-deserved.
Hussey's having his down time right about now. I suspect and hope that will be over by next year.
Hussey was utterly insalely prolific for far more than just a handful of Tests, so there's no automatic reason to suspect he won't now have downtime for that long. Of course, we'll only be able to wait and see, but as I say - I'm taking nothing as read either way.
The fact he played a lot of his career as an opener will, I think, be a big advantage to Australia if England swing the ball around consistently.
Well, given the ball's hardly swung a great deal in Australia or England in recent times that's more presumption than anything. Nonetheless, I don't really think he's someone who'll struggle against swing as-a-rule, though obviously the best swingers will out even the best batsmen.
Ponting is still class. He'd walk into most any side still, even if he's not as prodigious as he was say 18 months - 2 years ago ATM.
Of course he'd still walk into most, probably every, Test sides. But if you get some really good bowling, he's no longer completely dependable I doubt. His form against relatively moderate bowling over the past 8 months attests to this for mine.
 

Lillian Thomson

Hall of Fame Member
Unless Flintoff, Jones and Hoggard are back fully fit and on top form our chances are slim. James Anderson might look deadly against the feeble New Zealand batting line up on a seaming wicket, but on a good wicket against quality batsman he'll be fodder. It's going to be interesting to see what the stronger South African batting line up make of Sidebottom, I suspect Kallis is dusting off his batting average at this very moment.
 

Top_Cat

Request Your Custom Title Now!
Of course he'd still walk into most, probably every, Test sides. But if you get some really good bowling, he's no longer completely dependable I doubt. His form against relatively moderate bowling over the past 8 months attests to this for mine.
Christ, you make it sound like such a long time. He's only played 8 Tests in that time! 8 tests of poor form and before those, none for many months; pension him off already, he's obviously done.
 
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Athlai

Not Terrible
England can only hope to be competitive IMO, if they expect more I reckon they'll be sourly disappointed.
 

Flem274*

123/5
What use is Bracken when theres no shine on the ball?

He is more of a stock bowler.

Lee, Clark, Johnson and a spinner is our best attack.

Hell, give Noffke a shot as a bowling all rounder, he deserves it.

Our batting is solid - Jaques, Hayden, Ponting, Hussey, Clarke, Symonds and Haddin.

Best top 7 in world cricket. Not the same without Gilchrist but Haddin is a great batsman and wicketkeeper.

Symonds has proven himself, he went from an average of 17 or something to 38-39. Plus hes a useful bowler and the best fielder of all time.

How many tons does Jaques have to get to prove himself to you? Hes cemented in the team.

Hayden has taken a mortgage out as an opener, if he fires, which he will, not many bowlers can stop him, especially not any English ones.
Its like listening to a drunken Ian Healy.
 

Salamuddin

International Debutant
I cannot understand how this current Australian side has better players at their disposal. There are only a handful of players in the current Australian side that are certainities in the side. Out of which Ponting is going to be nearly 35 while Hayden is going to be nearing 38 next summer and the batting essentially revolves around these 2. As far as the Australian bowling attack is concerned, my thoughts stand exactly where they did before the India tour, they are nothing more than very ordinary and the fact that Shaun Tait(please not him again) is still considered to be first in line as a replacement only goes to show how deep those reserves are.
Australia undoubtedly have the better batsmen.
Hayden
Jacques
Ponting
Clarke
Hussey
Symonds
Haddin

v

Cook
Strauss
Vaughan
KP
Bell
Colly
Ambrose

Please there is no argument there. THe Australians are far superior in their top 6.


And a bowling attack of Clark, Lee, Johnson, <spinner> or one out of Noffke, Bracken etc. is better than Panesar, Sidebottom, Anderson, Broad. Flintoff and Jones may increase England's strength in that dept depending on their fitness/form but I don't see England having a decisive edge in that department.

Overall the Australian side is stronger and unless one of England's key guys have a blinder, Australia will win......they are technically better , fitter and more professional than England.
 

Prince EWS

Global Moderator
TBH, if I have the choice between Anderson and someone else like him, or Anderson and another batsman
Well so would I (unless of course you only had three frontline bowlers in the team at the time) but I wasn't debating that. I was debating your opinion that a poor bowler could never be an asset to an attack as a fifth member. A batsman may be of more use, but that poor bowler, depending on why he is poor, isn't as completely useless as you suggest.
 

Prince EWS

Global Moderator
And a bowling attack of Clark, Lee, Johnson, <spinner> or one out of Noffke, Bracken etc. is better than Panesar, Sidebottom, Anderson, Broad. Flintoff and Jones
Thinking about it, I actually disagree with that. At this point in time, assuming Flintoff comes back (I still consider Jones a write-off at this stage) I'd say England had the better attack. Better variety for all surfaces, better third seamer - better allround strength in it really. Clark and Lee may be the best bowlers of the lot but if Johnson and Casson are still in the team, I'd say England's attack would be stronger overall. Certainly not by as much as Australia's batting is superior to England's though.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
Christ, you make it sound like such a long time. He's only played 8 Tests in that time! 8 tests of poor form and before those, none for many months; pension him off already, he's obviously done.
It's fairly standard for most batsmen to have a small downhill after the age of 33 or so.

I'm certainly not pensioning him off, I more than expect him to be one of the best six batsmen in Australia for the next 2 or 3 years at least. But I don't think he'll hit his 2001-2003 form any time again.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
Well so would I (unless of course you only had three frontline bowlers in the team at the time) but I wasn't debating that. I was debating your opinion that a poor bowler could never be an asset to an attack as a fifth member. A batsman may be of more use, but that poor bowler, depending on why he is poor, isn't as completely useless as you suggest.
Well I wasn't really saying "a poor bowler can never be an asset to an attack as a fifth member". I was saying I don't think it's remotely likely enough to be justifying picking two bowlers as poor as Anderson.
 

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